Another one o' them smoking ban threads....

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Originally Posted by IsiliRunite

... Universal health care is not charity, it is not people in your neighborhood taking care of you or people in your work setting aside profits to help you pay for medical expenses or anything like that... I am talking about voluntary service to another human being, not big government programmes ...

Not charity - Agreed

People in your neighborhood taking care of you or people in your work setting aside profits to help you pay for medical expenses - The funds have to come from somewhere.

Voluntary service to anther human being - Yeah, right. That'll happen.

Big government programmes - Only option for many.

[IsiliRunite]

Originally Posted by Sarcasmo

I'm really angry because I made bad decisions in my life. If you can't talk about anything that won't fix our current problems immediately and without much effort, shut up! I'm too much of a battle-scarred cynic to set goals of progress for humanity.

Agreed.

If you disagree with what I say, that is okay, but to act as though this is a matter of right or wrong (like a piece of declarative knowledge) is quite arrogant and reckless. Maybe its better to have no beliefs than to stand behind yours as though they are the only perspective on the situation.

You are not "wrong", in my mind. You just don't have the same beliefs I do...When you act like there is no middleground or need for communication between schools of thought, that is when this health care problem or any problem for that matter will not be solved.

[cacophony]

no one at any point has behaved as though the issue is black and white, right or wrong.

i, in fact, gave you a number of sample counter-arguments in order to illustrate that at no point is this a simple matter. it all inevitably comes down to subjectivity.

but even if it were black and white, you've offered no white to counter everyone else's black. you're off in the ultraviolet, complaining that people can't see you.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by potatobroth

You're going to have to reiterate your "steps" because I'm having a hard time following your train of thought.

The way you describe things seems as though you imagine a world where only people who can afford to pay for their own injuries should play sports, race cars/bikes/on foot, go to a zoo, etc. You are leaving it up to chance for the poor person who wants to play a game of football but ends up snapping an ankle in the process. Its all well and good that in your system its only pittence to have the ankle set and cast, but I could make up costs like that as well and say all food should be handed over from farmers at no cost. And why not, its all speculative and magically charitable anyway.

Your 'Steps' aren't really steps but absurd points of a random eutopia where free services are handed out because well, you think they should. Somehow you have developed the notion that you will never need services rendered of a medical nature and that any money you drop into a government orginazation (or whatever since this conversation has evolved a bit) is wasted money.. that you'll never benefit from it. Although I hear almost no one wants cancer these days and never expected to fall ill from it. That's just what I hear.

Wow! Thanks, potatobroth - you just saved me a lot of typing. Well said!

[Sean]

Originally Posted by IsiliRunite

Agreed.

If you disagree with what I say, that is okay, but to act as though this is a matter of right or wrong (like a piece of declarative knowledge) is quite arrogant and reckless. Maybe its better to have no beliefs than to stand behind yours as though they are the only perspective on the situation.

You are not "wrong", in my mind. You just don't have the same beliefs I do...When you act like there is no middleground or need for communication between schools of thought, that is when this health care problem or any problem for that matter will not be solved.

That misquote of Sarcasmo kind of crosses a line for me there, sport. Enjoy yer little world. I'm off to update my "ignore" list now, which you will enjoy the sole spot on.

[Rog]

Originally Posted by IsiliRunite

Agreed.

but to act as though this is a matter of right or wrong (like a piece of declarative knowledge) is quite arrogant and reckless. .

yer got to laugh at this little gem really..........

I hope for your sake that you never get into a situation where you are ill and have no money in your country - only then will you recognise reality and the shallowness of your 'arguments'........

[Sarcasmo]

Originally Posted by IsiliRunite

Originally Posted by Sarcasmo
I'm really angry because I made bad decisions in my life. If you can't talk about anything that won't fix our current problems immediately and without much effort, shut up! I'm too much of a battle-scarred cynic to set goals of progress for humanity.


Agreed.

If you disagree with what I say, that is okay, but to act as though this is a matter of right or wrong (like a piece of declarative knowledge) is quite arrogant and reckless. Maybe its better to have no beliefs than to stand behind yours as though they are the only perspective on the situation.

You are not "wrong", in my mind. You just don't have the same beliefs I do...When you act like there is no middleground or need for communication between schools of thought, that is when this health care problem or any problem for that matter will not be solved.

Good Lord. Listen, you putz, if you're going to put me on the defensive, you're going to have to do better than this. I've been around since '99, when Andy Redbeard, Sven, and ergo were still around, and they would have eaten you alive. What you have to understand is that this is a place where your opinions are going to be challenged, especially when they seem to have emanated from a "challenged" mindset. Breaking down into petty insults about what I've done with my life isn't the way to go. In fact, it's just going to set more people against you. I can see why you're interested in dealing with microorganisms, seeing as that's just about the only level of life that can tolerate you for any length of time, but I'd check the slides for retarded growth just in case.

And I AM demanding a solution to our problem now, and I don't particularly care if it guts the wallet of a prick like yourself. Anyone who places money above human life is a turd, and they deserve whatever karmic vengeance they have coming. I've lived in the real world, and I've actually worked in a hospital as an EMT for 3 years prior to joining the service, as opposed to volunteering once a week so that I can gloat over my health and leer at nursing students. One of the facts that I've been attempting to drill into your head is the fact that, under the current system, we're already paying for stupid people, and because of the Hippocratic Oath, that's not something that's likely to change. You might be able to deny insurance to an idiot, but you can't deny care, seeing as medical attention is something that this country decided was a human right. So the money has to come from somewhere, right?

Now, I'm glad that you're setting goals for humanity, but it's just that humanity has this silly way of resisting change, and your powers of persuasion, as evidenced by this ongoing exercise in futility, rank somewhere between that of a sloth and that guy who tucked his dick between his legs in "Silence of the Lambs." Not to mention the fact that your supposed plan to help humankind evolve to solve the health care crisis is so far removed from the realm of possibility and practicality as to be totally wacko. Who takes care of who? How do you break it down? How do you deal with population densities, seeing as people living in 40 story filing cabinets have quite a few more people to take care of than the equivalent land area in Bangor, Wisconsin. How do you deal with the socioeconomic fact that citizens living in Cabrini Green or the Robert Taylor Projects in Chicago are just a little worse off than those living in the Hamptons. What you've failed to realize is that we "get" what your whole outline is, we just haven't gotten a single straight answer when we posit specific examples to you. We get a lot of runaround and language insulting our intelligence, which, somehow, does not persuade us.

I can't wait for your "essay" later on. Unfortunately, due to "poor decisions," I will not be able to read it for about 4 days or so (convoy back to al Taqqadum) so I will wait with baited breath until then. Unfortunately, I had planned on returning to school after my time in the service was up (one of the side effects of my "poor decision" was a free education) but if our institutions of higher learning are turning people like you out, I might just be a bartender.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Sarcasmo

...I've been around since '99, when Andy Redbeard, Sven, and ergo were still around

Oooooo-the old nemeses. Wonder what ever happened to Sven and Ergo. I honestly don't remember Andy Redbeard at this point. I must've never had any psychologically scarring debates with him....

[Strangelet]

Originally Posted by Sean

Oooooo-the old nemeses. Wonder what ever happened to Sven and Ergo. I honestly don't remember Andy Redbeard at this point. I must've never had any psychologically scarring debates with him....

i actually learned a lot from Sven, god bless him, after we got tired of insulting each other. good chap.

i just remember goldfish. man that guy wouldn't budge an inch on michael moore's objectivity.

[Deckard]

Originally Posted by Strangelet

i actually learned a lot from Sven, god bless him, after we got tired of insulting each other. good chap.

i just remember goldfish. man that guy wouldn't budge an inch on michael moore's objectivity.

Haha! yeah, both smart and funny guys from what i remember.
I don't recall Andy Redbeard though (I only joined in 2001).