U.S. Presidential Election 2008

[Sean]

Originally Posted by gambit

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9149.html

A good article from a week ago that points out that Hillary has virtually no chance of winning. I think the Clinton campaign realizes this and are trying everything they can to get her the nomination. I find it interesting that Hillary is arguing that pledged delegates aren't so iron-clad and important anymore when she was pushing so hard to get Florida and Michigan's pledged delegates into her column. Interesting may not be the right word. Hypocritical, I think is better or macchavelian.

Add on top of that the fact that she's actively trying to get both pledged and superdelegates to vote for her even if it means overturning the will of the voters, yet at the same time, when someone like Leahy suggests that he thinks she should consider bowing out for the sake of the party, her campaign's argument is that this would be unfair to the people who haven't voted yet. So do they want to honor and respect the will of the voters, or do they want to overturn the will of the voters? She can't have it both ways....

[cacophony]

to me, the whole "delegates don't have to honor the will of the people thing" is one of the most disgusting tactics i've ever seen in my years of following american politics. it's a huge warning sign. if she cares so little for the will of the people now, there's zero chance she'll give a shit about the people once she's in office. it's basically like asking for another george bush, someone who will use the presidency to run roughshod over the nation.

i realize there's little chance she'll get the nomination. but as of right now i'm committed to voting for john mccain if she does. i will not support a candidate who overtly encourages elected officials to violate the wishes of the people they serve.

[Sean]

I know it's hard to imagine, but she just got worse...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...901909_pf.html

Hillary Clinton today:

"I have no intention of stopping until we finish what we started and until we see what happens in the next 10 contests and until we resolve Florida and Michigan. And if we don't resolve it, we'll resolve it at the convention -- that's what credentials committees are for. We cannot go forward until Florida and Michigan are taken care of, otherwise the eventual nominee will not have the legitimacy that I think will haunt us," said the senator from New York. "I can imagine the ads the Republican Party and John McCain will run if we don't figure out how we can count the votes in Michigan and Florida."

She blatantly calls for pledged and super delegates to overturn the will of millions who've already cast their votes, while at the same time claiming that she cares deeply about the voters of Michigan and Florida, and of the remaining states - and yet she still has supporters. God I hope the voters in Pennsylvania wake up to this b.s. before their vote.


Oh....and this is classic, too ( http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/29/us...ef=todayspaper ) :

The Clinton campaign showed resolve in the face of the developments, rallying supporters and donors and enlisting prominent surrogates to fight back. Mrs. Clinton told aides that she would not be “bullied out” of the race.

In a conversation with two Democratic allies, she compared the situation to the “big boys” trying to bully a woman, according to interviews with them.

She has the nerve to claim that she's being bullied while she still stands behind the bullying, threatening letter her wealthy donors sent to Pelosi last week ( http://www.nydailynews.com/news/poli...arn_nancy.html ).

[cacophony]

Originally Posted by Sean

"I can imagine the ads the Republican Party and John McCain will run if we don't figure out how we can count the votes in Michigan and Florida."

i don't disagree with this assessment. howard dean really screwed up here. he may become the single most important reason the democrats lose the election, if this can't get resolved. historically democrats have always lost whenever they headed to the convention with such division in the party. and it reflects poorly on the party's ability to manage itself during a time when republicans have made a platform point out of democratic incompetence.

seriously. howard dean. the man who will lose the election.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by cacophony

i don't disagree with this assessment. howard dean really screwed up here. he may become the single most important reason the democrats lose the election, if this can't get resolved. historically democrats have always lost whenever they headed to the convention with such division in the party. and it reflects poorly on the party's ability to manage itself during a time when republicans have made a platform point out of democratic incompetence.

seriously. howard dean. the man who will lose the election.

I agree with your concerns about Michigan and Florida, but I take issue with how Hillary is trying to capitalize on the situation for her own strategic, political gain. She shines the brightest, most negative spotlight on it she can, even to the point of misrepresenting her Democratic rival's position on it in a way that could threaten his chances of winning the states in the general election. It's really just shown me once again that she's willing to destroy everything and everyone in her way to try to win the nomination, and that includes the likely Democratic nominee, Obama, and the Democratic party in general.

[cacophony]

i wasn't really commenting on hillary's use of the situation. my comment simply is a criticism of the party as a whole, and of howard dean's gross mismanagement that resulted in the current mess. it will come back to haunt the democratic nominee. if the nominee is obama, the damage might be minimal. he seems to be enough of a populist to recover from any implication that he didn't actually carry those states in a valid contest. if it's hillary, however, the damage will be tremendous.

[Deckard]

OK, the embed code isn't working so let's try a link instead...

[human151]

I like Barack obama, he is very eloquent and has some great Ideas. This church thing has tainted him a bit though.

Its definetely time for change.

[cacophony]

i'd be interested to read your thoughts on how the church thing has tainted him. like, quantify the feelings that you associate with the taint. i'm just curious because i'm a pretty vehement atheist who disagrees with nearly every expressed form of religion, yet i didn't come out of this with altered feelings about this candidate. and i'm far from a bumpersticker-wearing-banner-waving-champaign-boosting obamahead.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by cacophony

quantify the feelings that you associate with the taint

Just had to highlight that quote.

Also, I just saw an article where Hillary Clinton has likened her tenacity and fighting spirit to "Rocky" (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...cle=1&catnum=3). I wonder if she knows that Rocky lost?