sherburne on underworld

[BeautifulBurnout]

Originally Posted by BrotherLovesDub

i've gone back and deleted my posts not on the subject of the article. it would be nice if the others would do the same and let's cut the cancer out of this thread and just focus on the content of the article.

I would.

But then it would make the thread so boring, dahling

/me paints her nails

[adam]

Sorry, BLD, if your, "Am I fanboy if..." comments refer to what I was saying, I meant it to be tongue in cheek and not taken at face value. What I meant, I guess, is that the droves of threads dissecting the minutiae of every official or semi-official release have left me unable and uninclined to try and sift through for information I find actually valuable.

I meant to buy Riverrun; at the age you're describing they were one of my favorite acts, and so I wouldn't "write them off" because I had less interest in a single album. I think it more has to do with my tastes drifting from their aesthetic than a matter of their output becoming less satisfactory. I just never got around to buying any of it, and it's still far down my priority list.

I don't think I can agree with your comments about how you to relate to the music you liked when you were 16-25. I'm just outside of that age now (29), so maybe I'm too close to see the effect you're predicting, but I find I don't really relate to most of the stuff I liked at that age. Every once in a while I throw on some for nostalgia's sake, and I can rarely make it through an album, despite the fact that some of that stuff meant the world to me.

BB, that isn't at all what Duckie was saying. Not in the slightest degree. I'm surprised that that is your honest interpretation.

(edit: that's weird, when I edit my post that weird character in the first word isnt' there...)

[kid cue]

(kid duck...!)

no, of course i wasn't saying X person is 100% totally uncool for not knowing that minimal techno DJ Philip Sherburne opened for Michael Mayer. believe me when i say that i don't even like all things minimal/house/techno enough to care about that.

it was supposed to answer to this idea that he's just another out-of-touch journalist. far from it. it's pretty clear, if you're not trying to find reasons to lynch a troll.

and re: adam's first post in this thread, yeah ... i think i agree with his assessment of message boards. i hadn't thought of it like that. another, more concise way to describe the problem with this thread is: you can't have a genuinely critical, serious (!) discussion of any subject if you're also not willing to be critical about the way people discuss that subject. people jumping on any of these comments as being "personal attacks" is nothing but reactionary and short-sighted.

the irony just piles on when we are (theoretically) disallowed from doing this, and all you're left with is this fatalistic idea that everyone occupies a different intellectual plane, and the solution is for everyone on a supposedly 'higher' plane to step down to the lower ones, and dumb everything down for everybody's benefit (?). which must be why this misguided theory naturally concludes that anyone who refuses to do so must be some kind of elitist.

meta-criticisms are inherently provocative, and it's the semi-systematic witch hunt of provocative statements on this forum (when the hell did that start, anyway?) that's made it such a drastically less stimulating version of what it was. just one opinion though.

these threads make me think of activist parents hounding the game, music, and film industries to 'tone down the violence'. i basically stopped posting here (along with, i suspect, certain others) when it started to feel like soccer moms and their kids were brandishing pitchforks behind picket fences on their impeccable lawns. the atmosphere is thin and the people are thinning out too.

"we don't want no trouble from your kind here. this is a nice town. we like to keep it that way."

that's my very last word in my own defense and about forum culture, ever. i swear. i won't make an effort to defend myself in the future because i'm getting weary of having to stave off the neighborhood watch.

i'd immediately follow with an equally long post about UW, but i have to think it over for a while because i haven't listened to STITI in forever.

[adam]

Originally Posted by kid cue

you can't have a genuinely critical, serious (!) discussion of any subject if you're also not willing to be critical about the way people discuss that subject.

Much better than my semi-lucid rambling.

[kid cue]

as a tangent to the current UW discussion, i'm ambivalent about the concept of UW stepping away from the limelight, and using unconventional, more fluid ways to get releases out. if online releases are an ideal medium for Rick & Karl's rate of output, so be it--but ... given that the releases are only made available on underworldlive.com (and publicized on dirty's front page), which is a fairly esoteric website that only long-term / die-hard UW fans are going to check with any regularity, and that their premise is for Rick to experiment wildly with production & structure, it seems like sort of a critic-proof outlet. which is bad, IMO, because it suggests that a lot more chaff is likely to make it through (drastically more experimenting, zero timelines or barriers to release), and the response (from UWlive-goers) will never be anything less than basically positive. (i was so hyped for the first RR project, but i haven't really listened to it much. i heard Pizza For Eggs was good though ...)

not that there isn't any quality control from their end. but the group completely overhauled their sound (and visuals) in between MKI-Dubno-STITI-BF, and i feel like it was the largeness of each new release, the pressure of having to do it again with a significant album release, that helped that progression. UW seem like a quintessential album group in that regard.

but there was, always, the threat/anticipation of criticism from the larger public that must've helped shape each new album into something great. that was my point.

i guess i won't see it as an issue if the next album draws from all these side projects and is totally fresh.

[BrotherLovesDub]

Originally Posted by kid cue

as a tangent to the current UW discussion, i'm ambivalent about the concept of UW stepping away from the limelight, and using unconventional, more fluid ways to get releases out. if online releases are an ideal medium for Rick & Karl's rate of output, so be it--but ... given that the releases are only made available on underworldlive.com (and publicized on dirty's front page), which is a fairly esoteric website that only long-term / die-hard UW fans are going to check with any regularity, and that their premise is for Rick to experiment wildly with production & structure, it seems like sort of a critic-proof outlet. which is bad, IMO, because it suggests that a lot more chaff is likely to make it through (zero timelines or barriers to release), and the response (from UWlive-goers) will never be anything less than basically positive.

not that there isn't any quality control from their end. but the group completely overhauled their sound (and visuals) in between MKI-Dubno-STITI-BF, and i feel like it was the largeness of each new release, the pressure of having to do it again with a significant album release, that helped that progression. UW seem like a quintessential album group in that regard.

i guess i won't see it as an issue if the next album draws from all these side projects and is totally fresh.

the River Run Project was the end result of karl mentioning they had tons of ambient material that wasn't right for a proper album. at the time, the majority of dirty.org was frothing at the mouth to get their mitts on those ambient tracks (zOMG Thing In A Book pt.2???). they were done without much fuss and at a very reasonable price. a perfect outlet for them to express a different side.

Underworld have, by my estimation, 5 great songs that haven't been released but have been evolving in the live setting for a year or two. We'll see if they actually release those tracks or if they remain unpublished. This will be the first LP with Darren Price too, and if his contributions to the live set on the past tour is any indication, this next LP is going to sound very current while retaining that classic UW sensibility (Can You Feel This Bass).

I agree with Duckies comments above w/r/t the progression from Dubno-BF and each release getting larger etc., however, it's my belief that Underworld are happy to not be caught in that cycle. They've done that bit, now they're onto something else. Their goals have changed, if my understanding of their public comments in the last few years is on point. If you're expecting an epic masterpiece on par with STITI, or joyous anthems that reach the heights of Jumbo, or even deep classics like Dark and Long, you're probably waiting under the wrong tree. That fruit won't fall again. If you're intrigued with the sound of All These Things, Always Loved A Film, Globe, JAL To Tokyo etc., 2007 should yield at least a handful of tasty nuggets. In the end, our top 10 UW tracks will largely be compiled from the first 3 LPs. 1,2,5? more great tracks from the band is all I really hope for, the rest, as they say, is gravy.

[kid cue]

i'm all for UW getting out of a creative cycle that isn't doing it anymore! as a usually frustrated, down-on-myself artist i can completely understand the never-ending search for a working process that ... works.

i don't really understand why you're only expecting a small handful of classic tracks from the rest of the band's career, though. are you just talking about the age thing? or is it about their moving away from big-ass stadium raves (?) ...

[BrotherLovesDub]

i say that because i don't expect any artist to put out classic material for more than 10 years. i suppose i'm using new order as an example deep down. after their peak with Technique, they have put out the odd classic here and there, but never reached that peak again in album form. i don't expect Underworld to ever match STITI. who could?

as for their working process. i'd say it's working better than ever. it's just that what they're getting out of that process isn't to your liking now.

ultimately, how much can you expect from any artist? electronic artists rarely put together more than 2 lp's of quality material before their sound is passe. after that, they either experiment and lose their fanbase, stay the same and hear complaints of treading water and rehashing old ideas or adopt the current hot trend. *wouldn't mind hearing an UW dubstep mix, tbh*

[BeautifulBurnout]

My final word on "personal attack", (anti)-intellectualism and elitism, then I am out.

1. It isn't about dumbing down. It is about whether one wants to be able to communicate at every level in a manner that is comprehensible to all, or whether one wishes to communicate only on one's own "higher" level, and openly derides anyone they perceive as incapable of engaging in/with that level of discourse.

2. When putting forward one's argument, however intellectual or otherwise, it needs to be robust enough to stand on its own two feet. One can, of course, criticise the way in which an opposing voice postulates their point, but once that becomes the sole point of focus, the relevance of one's substantive argument is lost and the whole dicussion just degenerates into mud-slinging.

3. The person slinging the first clump of mud cannot, in all reasonableness, start whining when mud is slung back at them.

4. Nobody died and made me Queen of the Innernetz. I have the right to say what I like, as does anyone around here, and people have the right to take on board what I say, agree with me, disagree with me, point at me and laugh or put me on ignore. To suggest that people like me (whoever they may be, cos I haven't come across anyone else quite like me on these boards) are causing people to leave Dirty is, seemingly, vesting "us" with a great deal of power. Careful, cos that might just go to my head and I will begin to believe that I am actually a powerful person!

5. One final word. I still maintain that Sherburn's article was lazy, rehashed, sloppy journalism. I am not going to pull it apart sentence by sentence and justify that because I can't be bothered.



Disclaimer: All of the above is personal opinion. It is not intended to establish any kind of rules of behaviour in this forum. I am just a simple poster, not a mod or an admin. If I have an opinion on something I reserve the right to voice it on the same basis as any other poster on these boards. (see para 4 heretofore). If I don't have an opinion, I will STFU and go and do something else.

[Dirty0900]

Underworld themselves dont want to churn out the same kind of stuff. Look at Sola Sistim, that was originally a lot harder sounding but it got altered when it was pointed out at JBO that it was like Moaner number 2. Im glad UW have the balls to experiment with different genres.