Underworld rejected from ProgArchives

[holden]

Originally Posted by smack416

But I don't believe that "progressive" has ever meant new as it relates to music. ie, "the term "progressive" typically refers to the structure of a track which occur incrementally."

Oh, but it did! Problem is, there are at least two "progressive" prefixes- that which is usually applied to the genre (the prog-rock label), as indicative of experimental music or that which carries sophistication and style not usually found in mainstream rock, and then there is the "progressive" you're describing, smack416, for "progressive trance", "progressive house", etc, that's specific to a song structure.

I'd propose we forget the labels and connotations of the word Prog. That gets us into arguments about genres and comparisons to other bands.

Question is simple: did Underworld's music make an impact on the musical landscape? Were they a step ahead of the rest? I'd argue that the certainly were in the Dubno/STITI era and are making moves in this experimental direction again. If you aren't standing still, you are progressing. Simple as that

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by smack416

Funny. I wouldn't have equated the two, but a lot of this does seem to relate to Underworld, though I'm finding their last few years of material a little less complex than what is described here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock

As someone who has listened to far too much Yes and Rush, the only popular progressive act I can think of right now is Tool. Unless we want to include James Holden in the mix. :-P

Then there's the whole "post-rock" thing. I suppose Godspeed You! Black Emporer and Thee Silver Mt Zion Memorial Orchestra and Tra-la-la Band & Choir would also qualify as progressive, etc.

But I don't believe that "progressive" has ever meant new as it relates to music. ie, "the term "progressive" typically refers to the structure of a track which occur incrementally."

Anyway, as for ProgArchives, are they daft? What is the purpose of their "Progressive Electronic" section?

yeah, my post in their forums pretty much laid it out for them:



Well, it is techno, but it's also progressive, similar to Progressive Jazz (ie: Brand X). You can't say that Brand X is rock, but you can say it's prog. In a similar way, you can't really say Underworld is rock, but you can say it's prog.

I would say that they meet the requirements for prog:

1. Long compositions, sometimes running over 20 minutes, with intricate melodies and harmonies that require repeated listening to grasp. These are often described as epics and are the genre's clearest nod to classical music. An early example is the 23-minute "Echoes" by Pink Floyd. Other famous examples include Jethro Tull's "Thick as a Brick" (43 minutes), Yes' "Close to the Edge" (18 minutes) and Genesis' "Supper's Ready" (23 minutes). More recent extreme examples are the 60-minute "Light of Day, Day of Darkness" by Green Carnation and "Garden of Dreams" by The Flower Kings.
check

2. Lyrics that convey intricate and sometimes impenetrable narratives, covering such themes as science fiction, fantasy, history, religion, war, love, and madness. Many early 1970s progressive rock bands (especially German ones) featured lyrics concerned with left-wing politics and social issues. no check

3. Concept albums, in which a theme or storyline is explored throughout an entire album in a manner similar to a film or a play. In the days of vinyl, these were usually two-record sets with strikingly designed gatefold sleeves. Famous examples include The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway by Genesis, Tales from Topographic Oceans by Yes, 2112 by Rush, Dark Side of the Moon and The Wall by Pink Floyd, and the more recent Metropolis Part II: Scenes from a Memory by Dream Theater and Snow by Spock's Beard. Aqualung, perhaps the best-known record by Jethro Tull, is often regarded as a concept album due to its recurring themes, but songwriter Ian Anderson has always claimed that the album is just "a bunch of songs".
check

4. Unusual vocal styles and use of multi-part vocal harmonies. See Magma, Robert Wyatt, and Gentle Giant. check

5. Prominent use of electronic instrumentation — particularly keyboard instruments such as the organ, piano, Mellotron, and Moog synthesizer, in addition to the usual rock combination of electric guitar, bass and drums.
check

6. Use of unusual time signatures, scales, or tunings. Many pieces use multiple time signatures and/or tempi, sometimes concurrently. Solo passages for virtually every instrument, designed to showcase the virtuosity of the player. This is the sort of thing that contributed to the fame of such performers as keyboardist Rick Wakeman and drummer Neil Peart.
check- there are keyboard/guitar/electronic choir solos (don't believe it's mellotron but not sure)

7. Inclusion of classical pieces on albums. For example, Yes start their concerts with a taped extract of Stravinsky's Firebird suite, and Emerson Lake and Palmer have performed arrangements of pieces by Copland, Bartók, Moussorgsky, Prokofiev, Janacek, Alberto Ginastera, and often feature quotes from J. S. Bach in lead breaks. Jethro Tull recorded a famous cover of J. S. Bach's "Bouree", in which they turned the classical piece into a "sleazy jazzy night-club song", according to Ian Anderson. Marillion started concerts with Rossini's La Gazza Ladra (The Thieving Magpie). Symphony X has included parts by, or inspired by, Beethoven, Holst and Mozart.
no check

8. An aesthetic linking the music with visual art, a trend started by The Beatles with Sgt. Pepper's and enthusiastically embraced during the prog heyday. Some bands became as well-known for the art direction of their albums as for their sound, with the "look" integrated into the band's overall musical identity. This led to fame for particular artists and design studios, most notably Roger Dean, whose paintings and logo design for Yes are so essential to the band's identity they could be said to serve the same function as corporate branding. Hipgnosis became equally famous for their unusual sleeves for Pink Floyd, often featuring experimental photography quite innovative for the time (two men shaking hands, one of whom is in flames, on the cover of Wish You Were Here). H.R. Giger's painting for Emerson Lake and Palmer's Brain Salad Surgery is one of the most famous album sleeves ever produced.
check- they intricately design their album covers to match the albums with a design collective called tomato, of which they are prominent members

9. A piece that is subdivided into movements in the manner of a classical suite. Examples are the four-part "Close to the Edge" by Yes, six-part "Hemispheres" by Rush, and the seven-part "A Change of Seasons" by Dream Theater. All of TransAtlantic's epics are multipart. check- juanita - kiteless - to dream of love


10. A piece that is composed of a patchwork of musical themes that could conceivably stand as individual songs, but together serve to relate a complete narrative through music. Examples are "Supper's Ready" on Genesis' Foxtrot (the "Willow Farm" section of which was played as a single), "A Day in the Life" on Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band by The Beatles, Jethro Tull's Aqualung from the album of the same name, and "The Gates of Delirium" on Yes's album Relayer (from which the single "Soon" was taken).
check- the second half of 'mmm skyscraper i love you' could stand as a song on its own

11. A piece that allows the development of musical ideas via progressions or variations in the manner of a bolero or a canon. "King Kong" on Frank Zappa's Uncle Meat is an example.
not sure what this means, unless it means that they make music that doesn't sound like anything made before them, which they do. i won't count this one.


that's 8/10 requirements met (9/11 if you count the last one), and some bands on this site meet less of those. frankly, i'm not sure how you could argue that it's not prog. that's y'all's definition, by the way.


by the way, 2 and 3 are disputable.

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by stimpee

and rightly so. Your prog argument was trashed a few months ago. Underworld were clearly more krautrock than prog. For dirties who missed this do a search to read the thread.

http://www.progarchives.com/subgenre.asp?style=17

[bryantm3]

I got an email back:

"As I explained in the thread, the decision to reject Underworld was taken by the genre team. As a rule, they don't include modern electronic "trance" bands (sorry if this isn't the correct term, I'm not well up on the subject) such as Underworld. I must say I would tend to agree with them as I find the samples fairly repetitive aside from the Banstyle one. Perhaps you didn't submit the best examples?
You're welcome to resubmit the band in the future as genre teams and other things change on PA over time."


I probably didn't submit the best examples, or their most progressive stuff.
-Cherry Pie
-Juanita
-Banstyle
-Little Speaker
-Cups

i prolly should've done

-mmm skyscraper i love you
-spikee
-pizza for eggs
-banstyle
-kittens

[King of Snake]

you probably shouldn't really care either way. Sorry if that sounds harsh but is it really worth your time and energy to try and convince some people who you will never meet that run some kind site that no one cares about?

"your ultimate prog rock resource" is what the site says. However prog they may or not be, they are obvioulsy not a rockband.

[Icke]

Originally Posted by King of Snake

you probably shouldn't really care either way. Sorry if that sounds harsh but is it really worth your time and energy to try and convince some people who you will never meet that run some kind site that no one cares about?

"your ultimate prog rock resource" is what the site says. However prog they may or not be, they are obvioulsy not a rockband.

Depends on your definition of rock .

Originally Posted by bryantm3

6. Use of unusual time signatures, scales, or tunings. Many pieces use multiple time signatures and/or tempi, sometimes concurrently. Solo passages for virtually every instrument, designed to showcase the virtuosity of the player. This is the sort of thing that contributed to the fame of such performers as keyboardist Rick Wakeman and drummer Neil Peart.
check- there are keyboard/guitar/electronic choir solos (don't believe it's mellotron but not sure)

I don't think that the solo's in UW songs are meant to demonstrate the vituosity of the player. It is the overall structure that should/could be considered a sign of virtuosity. Though Karl's guitar solos are an exception, because they are played live. Not to downplay electronic music or anything, but programming a piano loop for example, how beautiful it may be, is not something that I (and probably most other people) would consider a sign of virtuosity.

[dubman]

Originally Posted by King of Snake

you probably shouldn't really care either way. Sorry if that sounds harsh but is it really worth your time and energy to try and convince some people who you will never meet that run some kind site that no one cares about?

"your ultimate prog rock resource" is what the site says. However prog they may or not be, they are obvioulsy not a rockband.

yeah, and i'm not too hot on their kind of music sharing half a genre name with the mars volta.

eugh.

and as for the points, 3 is more than disputable, it's not even there.
6 is ridiculous, and 9 +10 are rarities.

[GreenPea]

They have to draw the line somewhere. As an avid visitor of metal archives i know that the line of what is and what is not metal is quite arbitrary. I am not an expert in prog but I am sorry, if you include Underworld you might as well include every trance band in the prog archives. Very good decision to reject them imo. That email they sent you back is right on.

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by dubman

yeah, and i'm not too hot on their kind of music sharing half a genre name with the mars volta.

eugh.

and as for the points, 3 is more than disputable, it's not even there.
6 is ridiculous, and 9 +10 are rarities.

well 3 is possible. there are themes that are repeated throughout dubnobasswithmyheadman and beaucoup fish (bassline from 'dark & long' is repeated, sounds of thunder, wind, etc. are prevalent throughout album, beaucoup fish lyrics can be interpreted to be a concept album about a relationship with a woman, and 'tiny holes' is repeated at least 3-4 times. surely must have some meaning?)

[GreenPea]

Actually, I have to thank you for making me check the Prog Archives cause I just discovered that the soundtrack for Nosferatu (70s version) was made by Popol Vuh (a band that I've been meaning to check out for a while). And I remember while watching the movie thinking the music absolutely kicked major ass (it made me really emotional actually...) so just expanded my musical horizons a little bit