what do y'all think? (the atheism thread)

[myrrh]

Originally Posted by Sean

I just had a brief debate with a religious girl on another website in which she asserted that the complexities of the human body proved God's existence, because nothing that complex could possibly have come into being without the involvement of a "creator". I noted that if this was so, then that creator would presumably have to be at least as complex as humans if not moreso. I then asked her if a being's complexity inherently necessitated a creator, wouldn't that creator's complexity also necessitate a creator of their own? Her answer was that no, it didn't, because the nature of God is outside our realm of understanding. This is the kind of argument I always see. If you apply any logic or scientific method to the concept of "God", it simply gets brushed aside as irrelevant.

Actually, logic would dictate that a Creator can not be created. For if He was created, He could then not be the Creator. Therefor, for a Creator to exist, He would have to have always existed; ie being eternal.

That is logic in it's simplest.

[bas_I_am]

Originally Posted by myrrh

Actually, logic would dictate that a Creator can not be created. For if He was created, He could then not be the Creator. Therefor, for a Creator to exist, He would have to have always existed; ie being eternal.

That is logic in it's simplest.

A being that transcends time. . .

We are three dimensional beings, our experience is over the fourth dimension of time. the only thing we can know is the 'right now' - see Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. I can know where something is x or how fast its moving Δx / Δt, but I can't know both, as my perception of time is discrete.

God is a four dimensional being with an experience that is beyond our comprehension.

the cross section/shadow of a point - dim(0) - is null. . .
the cross section/shadow of a line - dim(1) - is a point - dim(0)
the cross section/shadow of a plane - dim(2) - is a line - dim(1)
the cross section/shadow of a solid - dim(3) - is a plane - dim(2)
the cross section/shadow of God - dim(4) - is the material world - dim (3)

[Andrea]

Cool!
Sounds like 5 dimensions to me whether the cross section/shadow of a point - dim(0) - is null or dim(0), probably because math is not my strong point

[Sean]

Originally Posted by myrrh

Actually, logic would dictate that a Creator can not be created. For if He was created, He could then not be the Creator. Therefor, for a Creator to exist, He would have to have always existed; ie being eternal.

That is logic in it's simplest.

And yet it's still logic that necessarily falls outside the realm of human comprehension, because as soon as any reality-based logic is applied to the concept of god, the entire idea comes crumbling down.

[myrrh]

The only part that is outside of human comprehension is the concept of eternity. This is because we and everything else in the Universe, including the Universe itself are finite.

However, I don't see that as being an issue because the result of using logic leads us to the point that there must be something that always existed. Otherwise, one would have to say that something came from nothing, which is completely illogical.

[bas_I_am]

Originally Posted by myrrh

The only part that is outside of human comprehension is the concept of eternity. This is because we and everything else in the Universe, including the Universe itself are finite.

Ummmmmm... no.

How long is the coastline of england? Australia? Oahu?

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by bas_I_am

Ummmmmm... no.

How long is the coastline of england? Australia? Oahu?

that's a silly question. you seem to be grasping here.

[bas_I_am]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

that's a silly question. you seem to be grasping here.

Its not a silly question. And it goes back to the concept of dimensions.

The perimiter, dim(1), of any island, is infinite. It contains a finite area, dim(2).

And back to seans point, godels incompleteness theory proves that every axiomatic system contains unprovable truths.

Its not that the concept of god breaks down under logic, its that the logic is incomplete.

[bryantm3]

i don't know where you're going with this, but the coastline of an island is the distance it takes to get around the island, ditto with a circle or a square or whatever. it isn't infinite.

this whole thread has gotten stupid because the people who believe in G-d can't prove it, and the people who don't believe are miserably failing at trying to disprove his existence.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by myrrh

The only part that is outside of human comprehension is the concept of eternity. This is because we and everything else in the Universe, including the Universe itself are finite.

That's not quite accurate. Yes, eternity is something we can't comprehend, but so is the concept of an eternal, conscious, omnipotent being that knowingly created the entire universe.

Originally Posted by myrrh

However, I don't see that as being an issue because the result of using logic leads us to the point that there must be something that always existed. Otherwise, one would have to say that something came from nothing, which is completely illogical.

This is true, but there's no scientifically valid evidence that what has always existed is an all-knowing, all-powerful, mythical entity.