what do y'all think? (the atheism thread)

[Deckard]

Originally Posted by Sean

Where you get off track is in assuming that simply because an adult is aware of the concept of "God", these clear differences no longer apply.

Precisely. Being unfamiliar with the concept of God is only one reason why someone may lack a belief in God, though it's sufficient to debunk the argument that not believing a claim necessitates making an alternate claim.

Originally Posted by Sean

Using myself as an example, I "do not believe in God". I've simply discarded the concept as statistically unlikely to the point of irrelevance based on the history of human knowledge as I understand it, and a complete lack of anything that could be considered scientific evidence to support it.

Just a small point on this. The reason I don't believe in God is not just because of an absence of scientific evidence, but also (perhaps moreso) the likelihood that scientific evidence for such a Being might be fundamentally impossible. After all, if the commonly held notion of God is correct - that He/it is beyond human comprehension - then we should probably not be too surprised at the lack of scientific evidence available to humans!

Contrast this with, say, astrology. I don't believe in the claims of astrologers, not because there can be no evidence of astrology, but because there is no evidence. Unlike the notion of God, if there is truth to the claims of astrology, we would expect to be able to observe the evidence, to comprehend it, to measure it. The cause and the effect are safely within our observable Universe. With the posited concept of God however, that's not necessarily the case.

This isn't to say I disagree with you in the main point you're making, which is that you can simply "not believe" without necessarily positing anything more. It's just to pre-empt the possible counterargument to your reference to a lack of scientific evidence. When it comes to the concept of God, it's not (just) that there is no evidence, but that there probably can be no evidence (therefore no solid basis for positive belief either way, whether in something's presence or absence).

[froopy seal]

Originally Posted by Deckard

When it comes to the concept of God, it's not (just) that there is no evidence, but that there probably can be no evidence [...].

Which is, of course, one of the most brilliant components in the invention of the concept of god-like beings.

[Deckard]

Originally Posted by froopy seal

Which is, of course, one of the most brilliant components in the invention of the concept of god-like beings.

The killer feature.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Originally Posted by Deckard

The killer feature.

In, like, slang, or like for real?*


(Damn, is it just me or do I sound like a valley girl?)

[Deckard]

Slang, and, like.... yeah you sooooo do (like)...

[froopy seal]

Originally Posted by Deckard

The killer feature.

If only I were able to code that into an app...

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by froopy seal

Which is, of course, one of the most brilliant components in the invention of the concept of god-like beings.

i don't regard it as a concept and i think it's misguided to call it a concept, but nonetheless. in practicality, though, think about it: if everyone had proof G-d existed, no one would be afraid to die, everyone would be asking him for everything, and life would be utterly pointless.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

i don't regard it as a concept and i think it's misguided to call it a concept, but nonetheless. in practicality, though, think about it: if everyone had proof G-d existed, no one would be afraid to die, everyone would be asking him for everything, and life would be utterly pointless.

I would think people might still be uneasy about whether they'd be going to heaven or hell, no?

And could you expand on why you feel that "life would be utterly pointless" if everyone had proof that God existed?

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by Sean

I would think people might still be uneasy about whether they'd be going to heaven or hell, no?

And could you expand on why you feel that "life would be utterly pointless" if everyone had proof that God existed?

well, i'm jewish, i don't really believe in hell. the general consensus among jews is that virtually everyone goes to gehenna, which is sort of like a temporary hell, so that they can learn all the things they did to people during their lives and learn from their mistakes. afterwards several things can happen, one of which is reincarnation and the other is going to heaven.

i think if everyone knew G-d existed, the purpose of this life, which is to learn right from wrong and to help other people, and whatnot, our values would be totally different. if everyone knew there was a G-d, they would say, "why doesn't he help the poor/sick/etc.?" or "it doesn't matter, i'm going to live forever anyway". all questions, inquiries, conflict, etc. would all be directed towards G-d to get him to solve all of our problems, and we wouldn't learn anything from each other or have any purpose in anything you do— why work all your life, find a husband/wife, become president, anything when you know that what awaits you afterwards is going to be better and in comparison this life is pointless?

but of course, this life isn't pointless— but some people have reached that extreme even without absolute proof. for example, the extremist muslims in al qaeda believe that suicide bombing is okay because they're all going to heaven and they do not value human life because of this view.

[froopy seal]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

i think if everyone knew G-d existed, the purpose of this life, which is to learn right from wrong and to help other people, and whatnot, our values would be totally different.

I think every human more or less knows what's right and what's wrong. We're just too lazy and egoistic to follow that knowledge. The odd sadist or egocentric might even find enjoyment in doing the opposite of what is considered appropriate.

Originally Posted by bryantm3

if everyone knew there was a G-d, they would say, "why doesn't he help the poor/sick/etc.?" or "it doesn't matter, i'm going to live forever anyway". all questions, inquiries, conflict, etc. would all be directed towards G-d to get him to solve all of our problems, and we wouldn't learn anything from each other or have any purpose in anything you do— why work all your life, find a husband/wife, become president, anything when you know that what awaits you afterwards is going to be better and in comparison this life is pointless?

If we had proof of god-like beings and heavenly afterlife, and if your assumptions of the results were correct, wouldn't it be the easiest and holiest path to kill yourself once you were enlightened and sufficiently brave? Consequently, we wouldn't have to worry about pointless lives down here on Earth for long.

Originally Posted by bryantm3

but of course, this life isn't pointless— but some people have reached that extreme even without absolute proof. for example, the extremist muslims in al qaeda believe that suicide bombing is okay because they're all going to heaven and they do not value human life because of this view.

I've always wondered if anyone could be that much of a believer. I mean, all this stuff about martyrdom, eternal life, a bunch of eager-to-please virgins etc. - just for blowing yourself to pieces, accompanied by the correct, sacred state of mind? I suspect there are more mundane motives behind this extremism, such as desperation, hate, or blindly following megalomaniac, charismatic, evil nutheads.

(Please excuse the heavy use of clichees.)