Arizona - WTF?

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Originally Posted by Sean

I and probably many other folks here saw an interview on the Colbert Report a couple weeks ago with the President of the Untied Farm Workers, Arturo Rodriquez. He's put together a website called www.takeourjobs.org, which offers a direct way for anyone willing to apply for a farming job currently being worked by immigrants - many illegal - to do so. As of the time of the interview, they had only received a couple applicants. And in reports I've seen on CNN, they've gone to some California farms and asked how many caucasians have ever applied for work, only for the foreman to tell them he's never had any apply. So if people want these jobs, they aren't making their desire known.

I don't really know if this is a good argument against SB1070 but it's a good point. I appriciate that someone is taking the time to make sites like that but I'm not sure if that fully gauges the interest...I would doubt that even a handful of out-of-work caucasians know about that site.

Originally Posted by Sean

Lots of points in here. One, while you may not be trying to "smear an entire ethnic group", that's exactly what SB1070 will result in, whether intentional or not. A law that dictates police must verify the immigration status of people they have "reasonable suspicion" towards, in a state that shares a border with Mexico, will inevitably result in everyone of Mexican heritage who's approached by a cop likely being put in a position of having to defend their legal status. Especially when SB1070 stipulates that any citizen witnessing a cop NOT verifying immigration status can sue that cop.

Secondly, despite insistence to the contrary by supporters of SB1070, this bill does NOT mirror federal law. The two stipulations I highlighted above about "reasonable suspicion" and citizens being able to sue cops that they don't feel are being stringent enough, are both unique to Arizona's bill. And beyond that, they are precisely what will be most destructive to the basic civil rights of American citizens of Mexican heritage.

Lastly, your statement declaring "the fact that we're averaging one kidnapping per day in this state" is a bit misleading in that it seems to imply that random illegal immigrants are coming into the United States and kidnapping random U.S. citizens. But according to what I've seen and heard, the issue is all thanks to the drug cartels dealing with collection issues and such through kidnappings of those who owe them money. And beyond that, many of the people who are kidnapping victims in Arizona are actually illegal immigrants who are then ransomed back to their families in Mexico - who are of course relatively helpless in doing anything about it through legal channels. And finally, virtually every other crime in Arizona has seen a drop-off in frequency, which further isolates the drug cartels as the root of any crime problems. So why not try exploring effective ways to deal with the specific issue of drug violence rather than a fundamentally flawed bill targeting all immigrants?

This always seems to get boiled down to an all-or-nothing argument, and I don't think it does the legitimate debate to be had any good. Illegals need a more reasonable path to citizenship if they've demonstrated that they're just here to work and be good, law-abiding citizens, as the vast majority are. It has been objectively observed that illegal immigrants have had a small net positive influence on our economy, and that virtually every city with a heavy population of illegal immigrants enjoys lower overall crime rates than cities without.

I agree that the bill as written does allow for a lot of discrimination, and it's no surprise the amount of broad language contained within. I don't think that any cops are going to actually get sued (how often do you witness people getting arrested anyway? But yeah that is a really stupid clause to put in there), but even if they do, keep in mind the thing I mentioned earlier, that there's such a huge (legal) Latino population in Arizona that the shit would really hit the fan should any of these nightmare discrimination scenarios really happen. If police start using this bill to take out their hidden racist impulses I think that it will be repealed fast. Oddly enough I still have faith in the American people and our system.

I realize that the 'one kidnapping per day' stat is misleading, and that's the way it is in Mexico too, but it's not an excuse to just let it slide. Even if the kidnapees ARE involved with the druglords, it's not like they deserve to die; same with the illegals. Secondly, I do believe a lot of innocents are getting kidnapped and ransomed, because I've heard a lot of stuff firsthand. It's not as though Arizona is unsafe but I can see their tolerance for this sort of thing wearing thin. As for a drug-violence related bill; what do you propose? It's not like they haven't been trying to fight this for years...

The all-or-nothing argument does apply to this bill, even if it doesn't really apply to the issue at hand which is immigration in general. We need to fix this system and deal with the problem up front instead of passing laws like this one; on that I agree. But given the absence of any type of immigration reform, I do understand a bill like this. Clearly the AZ government sees illegals as a problem, and I don't believe it's because "they hate Mexicans over there". Most likely because they do abuse our health care system and don't pay taxes (yes, I know that some do pay taxes). I know that many of them are just earnest, hard-working people that are good for our economy, but the question then is, why have the law at all? If I put on a blue jersey and started working at Wal-Mart without being hired would I not be arrested regardless of whether or not I was helping?

Look, it's clear there's a problem here...70% of Arizonans support the law, and it's a clear mistake to just say "well, they're all uneducated and racist". And this is in a state with a huge population of Latinos! They're better educated than you think.