The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j

Not surprised the movie industry would say that. You know, the same guys whose piracy concerns nearly killed off the very device that saved their asses (Betamax). I don't think they're the smartest group of guys when it comes to these matters.

"The movie industry"? Four artists working in the film industry constitute what you refer to as "the movie industry"? I think you're confusing artists with executives.

What's most impressive to me is that you have the confidence to insist that most artists "would be thankful" to have people steal their work and only maybe pay for part of it, despite the fact that I, a professional artist, and virtually all of my professional artist friends can tell you with no hesitation that we are in fact not thankful for having our work stolen. And the vast majority of my friends, co-workers and aquaintances are professional artists, so I'm not just talking about a couple of people.

Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j

I appriciate all the downtalking in that post though. The last sentence was my favorite. "So we sat around talking about how stupid and ignorant you were, until we realized that you are going to put us all out of work"...nice. Could have done with a few more instances of the word "illogical" and a couple more italicized phrases...otherwise, bravo.

Honestly, it wasn't meant as downtalking - it was simply relaying an actual event that happened as a direct result of me communicating your belief that illegal downloading isn't stealing. And I honestly didn't distort what you've said either. I told them that a big part of the reason you viewed it as not stealing is because mp3s are digital files that can be duplicated for free as opposed to physical CDs and such. I can't help it if they laughed at that.

And the last sentence in particular is not a slam, it's a fact. They were chuckling and being dismissive because they really thought it was just a line you and others were pushing to justify stealing, but when they realized I had really come to believe you were being serious, they got more serious too. They were concerned that people would actually have this attitude in regards to intellectual property. Our entire livelihood is based on compensation for the intellectual property we create and sell/get paid for, so when people are suddenly so flippant, we aren't super-jazzed about it.

Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j

Again, I do agree it's stealing if you twist the definition of stealing to fit copyright infringement as well. As Webster defines, they do NOT apply equally to the idea of downloading. And even if you believe they do, it's kind of silly to say it's hurting artists when I'm providing scenarios where they are profitting where otherwise they would not? What other kind of theft can you say that for? Mike Doughty claims that illegal file sharing saved his life. How can you say there's no gray area there?

As I've said all along, there's no evidence that it hurts everyone and I've never claimed as much, but I think it's important for people who illegally download files to consider that it is undeniably hurting many smaller artists. I don't think most people who steal music realize that. And hell, car theft helps some people when their car is a clunker and the insurance payment allows them to buy a better new one, but that doesn't change the fact that car theft is illegal, unethical, and wrong.

Aside from that, your scenarios are, quite frankly, insulting to artists. It doesn't seem you'll ever accept that but again, I'm a professional artist as are most of my friends, and I'm telling you straight up that they are. No one in any industry should ever be "thankful" for having half their work paid for and the other half stolen. And it is stealing, despite any of your claims otherwise. Whether it's a digital file, or a tape, or a record, or a CD, you're legally and ethically supposed to pay for the intellectual property ("property" being the operative word here) you intend to take possession of - not the medium it's distributed on - otherwise you've stolen it.

And incidentally, what's ironic is that your line of argument is actually more in line with the big movie and television studios right now than it is with any artists. The recent writer's and actor's union strikes were instigated by the big companies refusing to treat legal, digital distribution of films and TV shows as things they needed to pay residuals to actors and writers for simply because they aren't being distributed on a physical medium.

Now I know the reality of the situation is that this behavior will continue, as will all other crime - car thefts, assaults, breaking and entering, insider trading, etc - but that doesn't in any way justify taking part in these acts, or change the fact that they're all crimes that carry consequences, most notably the consequence that they all create victims. And victims are seldom "thankful" for being on the receiving end of a crime...