is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?

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Originally Posted by Sean

Clearly we haven't "outgrown the garden", otherwise the lame "Adam and Steve" slogan wouldn't exist. And it certainly isn't a logical argument - which is the point that was being made - given that the Adam and Eve story is a parable meant to convey the idea of creationism, which is hardly a logical theory. Simply dismissing this point out of hand doesn't make it cease to exist.

Okay, but that doesn't remove bigotry, or right and wrong from the issue, which was the point being made. Sure you can apply the "what's their motivation?" question to anything, but that doesn't change the fact that many people simply believe that homosexuality is an abomination and a sin that gay folks will burn in hell for. And they translate these bigoted beliefs into legislation that actually strips basic civil rights away from an entire group of people, like prop 8 here in California. So midgets wanting to lower the height requirements of roller coasters has absolutely no bearing on whether or not opposition to same-sex marriage is motivated by bigotry or not. In fact, I don't even understand the point you're trying to make with the above argument. Especially since file sharing actually does hurt artists (argument for another thread )

And to take it a step further, of course gay people who support gay marriage are in it to suit their personal desires. They don't want to be discriminated against! Do they consider the affect on society? Who knows, but in my personal opinion, bigotry-based discrimination has never been good for society, so the pro-same sex marriage crowd has a far more stable logic-platform to stand on than the cons do.

Maybe because I'm from Wisconsin, but I have honestly never heard the "Adam and Steve" argument used as anything other than sarcasm.

The point of the argument is that pretty much everyone is biased, not just the bigots and hateful. It's in response to this thread's general attitude which seems to be that the anti-gay marriage people don't just dislike the idea but are also homophobic, bigoted, hateful people. It is not the argument that I dislike. I don't see anything wrong with same sex marriage personally. But honestly I would be afraid to ever argue against it because no matter *what* argument I come up with I would be called hateful. Same as arguing against affirmative action. I don't see it as stripping them of their "basic civil rights". They can still get married, it just has to be someone of the opposite gender.

I don't wanna argue the file sharing thing, because my point is that it was ambigious. You think it hurts you, fine. Mike Doughty claims that he'd be flat broke if not for it. Could be argued either way, and I'd wager that most arguments made on the topic are biased in some way.