myrrh bait

[myrrh]

I am leading a group out in the countryside and will not be around proper civilisation for another week, so sorry to disappoint in the slow responce to this. I actually didn't even know this happened, but when I am working like now, I am basically cut off from the world (I guide tourists).

Originally Posted by Strangelet

I guess I'm thinking one *can* take these incidents as representative of Islam, as much as witch hunting with christianity. Which is not saying that Islam is inherently evil or even does more evil than good. Its simply saying that the religion *is* a contributing cause to unethical behavior.

I would agree with you here in the fact that you can discuss all aspects of religions. However, this is based on what you considered ethical and unethical.

I am not sure what exactly the point that this thread was going to bring up - was it the woman issue, or the punishment for the crimes issue.

If it is the woman issue, then we know that the Taliban oppresses women. However, Islam does not. The evidence is clear all around in this, and if you actually speak to muslim women on this, they will tell you.

If it is about the flogging, then I have no issues with flogging as a punishment. Everyone talks about this being barbaric, but the reality is this type of punishment works to stop crime. The criminal system in the US, for example, does not work. It does nothing to prevent crime from happening, and it is generally repeat criminals.

As of 2007, 7.2 million Americans were incarcerated, on probation or parole. This is 1 out of 100 Americans, which is the highest rate in the world. These numbers are signs of a dysfunctional society.

So, if you are going to this route, then I can't see how saying the Wests way of doing things is any better. In fact, I would say it is worse because it is not solving the issues with crime.

[King of Snake]

Originally Posted by myrrh

If it is about the flogging, then I have no issues with flogging as a punishment. Everyone talks about this being barbaric, but the reality is this type of punishment works to stop crime.

please provide evidence to back up this "reality". Generally speaking, I think it's more realistic to say that no form of punishment has ever served (or worked very well) to stop crime, but is rather a form of retribution by society.
If a person is going to kill someone, it hardly matters if the punishment is 15 years in prison or a good old public flogging, neither is gonna deter him from his act.

As of 2007, 7.2 million Americans were incarcerated, on probation or parole. This is 1 out of 100 Americans, which is the highest rate in the world. These numbers are signs of a dysfunctional society.

Actually I think they are signs of a dysfunctional justice system more than a dysfunctional society in general.
Most of these people are incarcerated for drug-related offenses because we've collectively decided that smoking certain plants is a crime. And in the USA they take this crime just a little bit more seriously than in most other western countries (europe).

I think if something like cannabis use and posession would be completely decriminalised you'd see that incarceration rate drop quite rapidly to more normal levels.

[Strangelet]

Originally Posted by King of Snake

please provide evidence to back up this "reality". Generally speaking, I think it's more realistic to say that no form of punishment has ever served (or worked very well) to stop crime, but is rather a form of retribution by society.
If a person is going to kill someone, it hardly matters if the punishment is 15 years in prison or a good old public flogging, neither is gonna deter him from his act.

capital punishment has been shown so many times over to *not* deter crime that its supporters have generally stopped using the the crime deterrent argument.

but hey maybe flogging will work where electrocution has failed. Makes perfect sense.