Gaza

[myrrh]

I am surprised that this hasn't come up yet, but I guess the time of year has something to do with it. Anyway...

There is no love or even a small liking for the Israeli government. Neither do I have any positive feelings for Abbas and his illegal, US backed Fatah government. It sickens me how he just sits back and allows such actions to continue.

That being said, it is sad that a country - that country being Israeli - can just continue to pull all the stunts that it does and get away with them. I don't know what it is going to take for the Arab countries to finally grow a sack and ally up against Israel.

I am sure that the coward puppet regimes in the region fear the US stepping into things. However, if they had any ounce of smarts in their collective heads, and perhaps a bit of courage, then they would see that if they were ever going to do something then perhaps now would be the time because the US has it's troops spread across the world and the opinion of the US people entering another fight might not be positive.

This is a perfect example of how US politics work, and why I say "US Democracy" as if it is it's own ideology:

"The rocket barrage by Hamas that preceded Israel's air strikes began with the unraveling of a cease-fire, brokered by Egypt, that had been in place since June. Although Hamas said the truce expired on Dec. 19, it began firing rockets earlier, in response to an Israeli raid on Nov. 5 aimed at stopping Palestinians from tunneling under the boundary fence. Hamas needed a truce, but one on more favorable terms than what had applied in the preceding six months. During that time, Israel had largely stopped military attacks in Gaza but kept in place a crippling economic siege as part of a Bush Administration–backed campaign to pressure the Palestinian civilian population to overthrow the Hamas government it had elected in 2006."

That is from Time.

[Strangelet]

Originally Posted by myrrh

This is a perfect example of how US politics work, and why I say "US Democracy" as if it is it's own ideology:

"The rocket barrage by Hamas that preceded Israel's air strikes began with the unraveling of a cease-fire, brokered by Egypt, that had been in place since June. Although Hamas said the truce expired on Dec. 19, it began firing rockets earlier, in response to an Israeli raid on Nov. 5 aimed at stopping Palestinians from tunneling under the boundary fence. Hamas needed a truce, but one on more favorable terms than what had applied in the preceding six months. During that time, Israel had largely stopped military attacks in Gaza but kept in place a crippling economic siege as part of a Bush Administration–backed campaign to pressure the Palestinian civilian population to overthrow the Hamas government it had elected in 2006."

That is from Time.

The problem I have is that, from past conversations, you want to argue for a theocracy. Its not valid to say democracy and economic sanctions go hand in hand. Nor is it valid to say that sharia law is the only answer simply because the world's current super power is internally democratic and externally imperialistic.

In the age of torture and gitmo, pinochet, the shah, millions dead by crippling sanctions, I don't think a lot of americans can still hold the pretense that their government treats their own the same as they treat the outside world (Although lately its been converging to a general practice of despotism at home *and* abroad)

So if even your garden variety average joe the plumber american can understand that the exported product of US DEMOCRACY (trademark, copywrite halliburtan, all rights resesrved) is not recognizable to the democracy they were taught in civics class, then you shouldn't be able to say, See? democracy sucks. lets all go see what the imam has to say about monetary policy and civil liberties.

[Strangelet]

anyhoo....

don't mean to derail the thread into a debate about styles of government....

Maybe not even this time, but it will come to pass where Israel sends its army stocked with U.S. weapons and religious gumption and find that it walked into the jaws of a particularly hungry, vengeful monster, partially of its own creation.

I don't say that with any glee. I hope it doesn't happen. But too often it finds itself on the opposite end of general world opinion about something bloody its doing. And the response is that "israel has a right defend itself"
Repeated often enough, this is the mantra response that works pretty well shaming away anyone who criticizes its tactics.

Recently echoed by Obama, who wondered what it would feel like if his daughters were living in an area where hamas rockets were falling. He would defend himself, like Israel. I just wonder if he will the the first president to also wonder how it would feel if his daughters were also some of the kids pulled dead out of the rubble of some bombed building in gaza, after 4 days of canvasing air raids over populated cities. Because of some rockets that has a less chance of killing any particular person than a car crash.

[BeautifulBurnout]

The main problem with Israel/Palestine is the extreme polarisation of the question. On the one hand you have the Israelis saying "yes, but Hamas wants to destroy Israel and keeps firing rockets at our civilians". On the other side you have the Palestinians that say "Yes, but Israel want to drive us out and have been keeping us enmured in this ghetto while our children starve to death".

One side has to take the higher ground on this. And in my opinion that side has to be Israel, largely because it has the lion's share of the international support and funding.

We saw something similar here in the UK with the Irish Troubles, albeit that the British government never went so far as to launch air-raids on the Falls Road. But it took some very brave moves from the British government finally to agree to negotiate with the IRA. It was an unpopular move to begin with nd some thought it was political suicide, that we were "giving in to terrorists" (sound familiar?), but eventually it worked. That is not to say that the effect was immediate, mind you. The Omagh bombing could have been a very serious set-back indeed to the whole peace process if we hadn't had nerves of steel and stuck to the plan. 15 years later and there is a lasting peace in Northern Ireland, something that would have been inconceivable 20 or 25 years ago.

Also, I want to know where our Special Middle East Envoy Blair is? Is his job supposed to be stopping these things from happening?

[Deckard]

"There is no military solution in Gaza."

[IsiliRunite]

Originally Posted by Deckard

"There is no military solution."

Fixed.

The arab nations can't unite and take a stand, because in terms of advancement that leads to superiority in various areas, Israel has it down. Its like new money verses old money, only old money resorts to violence too frequently and new money is too unethical (namely in greed, support of terrorism) or uorganized in certain factions to lead to any peace. Its gotta start with Israel improving living conditions of palestinians and unconditionsal peace is more probable.

[myrrh]

Yeah, I agree that Israel has the more advanced weapons etc, when compared to the Arab nations around it. And I would normally not be one to say go out and fight, but this is getting to the point where the only solution is to be team up against Israel, or Israel will continue to do what it is doing.

Or perhaps if the US, would actually do something other than say Israel has the right to defend itself. Obama and everyone else who utters such babble needs to be bitch-slapped back into reality.

There is a major difference between defending yourself and going out on an offensive. And yes the best defense is a good offensive, but the similarity in this situation is that if I punched you in the face, you in turn pull out the shotgun and blast a hole in my stomach.

[BeautifulBurnout]

"the only solution is to be team up against Israel, or Israel will continue to do what it is doing."
"the only solution is for Israel to keep attacking Gaza until they stop sending rockets over."
"the only solution is to be team up against Israel, or Israel will continue to do what it is doing."
"the only solution is for Israel to keep attacking Gaza until they stop sending rockets over."
"the only solution is to be team up against Israel, or Israel will continue to do what it is doing."
"the only solution is for Israel to keep attacking Gaza until they stop sending rockets over."
"the only solution is to be team up against Israel, or Israel will continue to do what it is doing."
"the only solution is for Israel to keep attacking Gaza until they stop sending rockets over."
BANG!

[Strangelet]

oh look

a picture of tel aviv in five years from now.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by BeautifulBurnout

One side has to take the higher ground on this. And in my opinion that side has to be Israel, largely because it has the lion's share of the international support and funding.

I agree with this in theory, but I have little hope that such a move would be rewarded with peace from those who wish to see Israel destroyed. But at the very least, if Israel would be bold enough to try taking the higher ground, it could possibly serve to illustrate who out there is and isn't interested in living as peaceful neighbors.