Do you feel guilty about downloading OwB?

[BrotherLovesDub]

well, do ya? huh?

[potatobroth]

nope. i should but i dont. its a sign of the times. i had also pre-ordered the DVD package and usually end up buying more copies of the album and singles than is even necessary so i sleep well at night.

i DO feel guilty sharing it, so im more of the leecher kind. I downloaded it, but removed it from my share folder.

[holden]

I thought Scott said we'd leave the philosophy of whether or not to download the leaked copy alone.
Although, i guess if you've already made your decision to DL (and not pay), you can justify the guilt away however you want. :p

Patiently awaiting Oct. 16th for my preorder to arrive :)
i'm not ruining my UW Christmas in October

[qirex]

Downloading simply to hear the album before it comes out isn't bad at all. If anything, it should be flattering to the band that we want to hear the music that bad. I pre-oredered OWB the second it was available but I was just to anxious to hear the new music. If people are going to DL and not pay, that's their own business. The way I see it....if I DL and like it, I buy it to show support.
The guilty ones should be the ones who DL, enjoy it, and not buy.

[Butcher of Bakersfield]

no, because i didn't download the thing.

how does it feel to not be a real fan?

*ohhh, that's cold!*

[negative1]

yeah, but it gets tricky when the material isn't available to buy [easily]
(not in this case), although what about that extra track on the japanese
version, or extra tracks on the japanese Itunes, etc...promo mixes..etc..

[big screen satellite]

ask this on another forum and yeah well its a different issue, but i seriously think that most people here will buy it regardless of downloading it

the thing is that the people who download stuff just for the sake of downloading stuff tend not to have been the one or are the ones who go out and buy anyway...


its the same issue with people watching pirate copies of movies and the movie companies saying its casuing a decline in cinema going, well these people never went to the movies anyway..

i have no issue with downloading it personally because i have bought it already...

[negative1]

also, if i did feel guilty,
why isn't there an option to say yes?

because i would be too guilty to vote yes?

-1

[BrotherLovesDub]

Although, i guess if you've already made your decision to DL (and not pay), you can justify the guilt away however you want. :p

Patiently awaiting Oct. 16th for my preorder to arrive :)
i'm not ruining my UW Christmas in October

1. who said anything about not paying? i've already paid for 3 diff. versions of this album. if you're posting to the Underworld message boards, the odds are good you're enough of a fan to buy their albums.

2. ruining? you're implying that those who have heard it already have ruined the experience or something. that's ridiculous. i'm thrilled. i haven't had this much fun walking to and from work, or listening to music at work since the Cocoon broadcast. i waited to hear the album until it leaked on thursday. that build up of 5 years was more than sufficient for me to take extreme pleasure and satisfaction in listening to Oblivion with Bells right now! i don't think waiting 2 weeks would have made a difference in my enjoyment of the album. not one time in the past 5 or 6 years have i ever wished i'd waited to hear an album that i downloaded. not one time!

but it's all about the "EXPERIENCE", the opening of the package, reading the liner notes, cutting out the pictures from Teen Beat.

alternately, its about seeing a post on a message board, logging into your fav. torrent site, see the album you've been waiting to leak finally being shared, download immediately, watch with your heart pounding as the progress bar successfully reveals with each passing second more and more bits of data coming together in that newly created folder, piecing together the sounds you've waiting 5 long years to hear. you see a link to a high quailty jpg. you flip through the tour book you bought at one of the recent live shows. actually several times larger than the cd booklet. you follow links to reviews and message board discussions already occuring with the hundreds who already downloaded while you were sleeping. they're 3 pages into a discussion about the album already so you better catch up. since you don't have to rip the audio to mp3 you just stick it on your media player of choice and begin listening non-stop. you join the conversation that's already in full flow. you participate in dissecting the album, the artwork, diff. versions etc.

by the time those holier than thou, moral stewards have had their albums delivered or purchased from the shops, the discussion has died down and there's a seperate thread for the 3 people to repeat whats been discussed and rehashed for weeks already.

enjoy.

[negative1]

just to say 'hear hear' to brotherlovesdub...

but what about those people in japan that are getting it early?
should they wait until everyone else in the world gets it before
talking about it?

whats the line from 'serenity'?

you can't stop the signal..

-1

[happiness stan]

no, because i didn't download the thing.

I'm with you, I can wait.
Getting the leaked version ruins the event for me.

[jrmint]

alternately, its about seeing a post on a message board, logging into your fav. torrent site, see the album you've been waiting to leak finally being shared, download immediately, watch with your heart pounding as the progress bar successfully reveals with each passing second more and more bits of data coming together in that newly created folder, piecing together the sounds you've waiting 5 long years to hear. you see a link to a high quailty jpg. you flip through the tour book you bought at one of the recent live shows. actually several times larger than the cd booklet. you follow links to reviews and message board discussions already occuring with the hundreds who already downloaded while you were sleeping. they're 3 pages into a discussion about the album already so you better catch up. since you don't have to rip the audio to mp3 you just stick it on your media player of choice and begin listening non-stop. you join the conversation that's already in full flow. you participate in dissecting the album, the artwork, diff. versions etc.
this quote is a beauty, i'm speechless! and that's how it's done nowadays..

[holden]

1. who said anything about not paying? i've already paid for 3 diff. versions of this album. if you're posting to the Underworld message boards, the odds are good you're enough of a fan to buy their albums. .

You've said this before, and no one's doubting you're a fan who will support the band by paying. But this argument is weak. It would be like saying, i have a shopping cart full of food i'm buying, so i'm entitled to an extra bag of chips. I don't care if you bought 50 copies of the album. Did you pay for the one you downloaded? UW get no money from all the leaked copies. My suggestion is you pay then again for this copy.


2. ruining? you're implying that those who have heard it already have ruined the experience or something. ...

by the time those holier than thou, moral stewards have had their albums delivered or purchased from the shops, the discussion has died down and there's a seperate thread for the 3 people to repeat whats been discussed and rehashed for weeks already.


I'll agree with you that enjoyment of a new release is an individual matter, so i'm glad you are thrilled with going about it your way, and maybe that's the way many people do it in this digital age of hurry up and gimme now. I for one like a tangible product and the expectation of waiting for when something's set to be released. To each their own. But the almost- immediate gratification of downloading the leak and then talking about all elements does, in my opinion, lessen the enjoyment for those who waited. Not saying that every thread here needs a spoiler alert, and it's great to see the buzz OWB is generating. But collective (and many individual) opinions of the album have been formed before i even got a chance to listen to it. For me, that's like waiting for Christmas morning and two weeks beforehand, someone tells you what's in the packages.

By the way, feeling entitled to something for free because you've purchased so much other stuff ior are a fan is also being holier than thou. The rules apparently don't apply to everyone.

[TheBang]

I have two things to say.

First, amen, to BLD.

I don't care if you bought 50 copies of the album. Did you pay for the one you downloaded? UW get no money from all the leaked copies. My suggestion is you pay then again for this copy.
Secondly, this is my right under the fair use provisions of U.S. copyright law, specifically the Audio Home Recording Act of 1992 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_Home_Recording_Act#Exemption_from_Infringeme nt_Actions).

[TheBang]

By the way, feeling entitled to something for free because you've purchased so much other stuff ior are a fan is also being holier than thou. The rules apparently don't apply to everyone.
I guess I had one more thing to say. I do generally agree with this sentiment. But that's neither here nor there for me, regarding downloading this album. From a moralist perspective, I feel fine (not necessarily entitled) with downloading this album, because I've already paid for it.

[BrotherLovesDub]

Fair Use, in my opinion. i've got a digital copy, degraded in quality from the original. i feel entitled to make copies of the items i purchase and i feel entitled to download without paying for lossy file formats. i'm getting digital files, they are absolutely worthless to me. i wouldn't pay for them unless that was the only format offered like the River Runs, which i paid for.

you're buying into the RIAA/MPAA's argument hook, line and sinker. the rules you say don't apply to everyone have been twisted by money hungry corprate conglomerates. i'm not interested in following their rules.

[negative1]

[quote=BrotherLovesDub]Fair Use, in my opinion. i've got a digital copy, degraded in quality from the original. i feel entitled to make copies of the items i purchase and i feel entitled to download without paying for lossy file formats. i'm getting digital files, they are absolutely worthless to me. i wouldn't pay for them unless that was the only format offered like the River Runs, which i paid for.
quote]

bld, i also agree about the downloads,

but (i'm sure) you can download the full version (lossless FLACS/WAVS)from some sites. is that against the copyright rules?

-1

[dubman]

i've paid for the product already, as echospin charges the card as you ordered.
so i paid, my money is gone, and i have no physical product.
if we wanted to do this circus that holden's trying to hold up in the face of BLD's staggeringly good post, then we could say that i'm entitled to downloading it.

[TheBang]

but (i'm sure) you can download the full version (lossless FLACS/WAVS)from some sites. is that against the copyright rules?
Well, there hasn't really been any case law established for situations like this ("I downloaded it, but I already own it"). My personal feeling is that even perfect copies (like FLAC) are fine, so long as you own it, have already ordered it, or will be purchasing it "soon".

[holden]

I'm not going to convince anyone that has already downloaded it that they shouldn't have. And i doubt anyone feels guilty anyway. In fact, "yes i feel guilty" was not even an option in the poll.
I'm not falling for any circus act or recording company spin. i've downloaded plenty in the past and have felt guilty about it. To my moral code it was stealing. If it's fine by you, consider it free use, getting an inferior product, however you justify it, go for it, i surrender. But don't insult me for my views.

[galama]

I stumbled upon the link few days ago and i quickly turned away while trying to strike ALT F4. I don't want it. Two more weeks and i'll have the ultime soyokaze of smelling the foil wrapped around OWB

[negative1]

I'm not going to convince anyone that has already downloaded it that they shouldn't have. And i doubt anyone feels guilty anyway. In fact, "yes i feel guilty" was not even an option in the poll.


hmm...one user so far has used the 'undecided' option..

-1

[BrotherLovesDub]

no personal offense to you holden. i felt as if you were looking down on those who downloaded and you were taking a moral high road that assumed your stance was superiour.

here's a question for you holden. if you found a promo copy of the japanese collectors set in your local used cd shop before October 16, would you buy it?

[dubman]

But don't insult me for my views.
why not
i think it's silly
it's entirely predicated on release dates as being a sacred date that shouldn't be broken and decides whether it's stealing or not.
it's already paid for.
and you're resenting everyone talking about it because you havent heard it yet and we're spoiling it.
it's selfish and silly.
it's silly even having this conversation again and again
this thread should be jettisoned

[holden]

no personal offense to you holden. i felt as if you were looking down on those who downloaded and you were taking a moral high road that assumed your stance was superiour.

here's a question for you holden. if you found a promo copy of the japanese collectors set in your local used cd shop before October 16, would you buy it?

It's cool.

Hmmm, well, the japanese release date is October 3, so if i was lucky enough to find the promo, yes, i'd buy it, provided it was official (i.e. not a copy) as it's out when it was supposed to be out. i never understood why different regions had different release dates, or different versions for that matter...makes he rest of the world feel slighted!:p

To your earlier point that most of the people who post here and downloaded the leak are true fans and will buy the CD anyway...i totally agree with you. But note that there are also a lot of new members on here. Let's hope they will also go any buy it. The leak links have appeared on other boards i've seen, and i dunno if those are fans who will go and buy it. One can't tell, but it's just realistic to expect that for everyone who does buy it, there's quite a few less albums sold becuase someone was happy enough with the rip.

[BrotherLovesDub]

holden, the laws about buying and selling promos are black and white. it is illegal for shops to sell promos. it says so on the promo sticker. that copy belongs to the record label. the scenario is no different. both ways you're illegally obtaining the album before it's released to your region. these laws aren't enforced, but it's still illegal. it's just what laws you choose to follow.

[holden]

why not
i think it's silly
it's entirely predicated on release dates as being a sacred date that shouldn't be broken and decides whether it's stealing or not.
it's already paid for.
and you're resenting everyone talking about it because you havent heard it yet and we're spoiling it.
it's selfish and silly.
it's silly even having this conversation again and again
this thread should be jettisoned

You're silly! :p
And yeah, you are spoiling it for me and others, too, so where's the selfishness in that? I'd say it's selfish to take more than you should.

But i'm apparently greatly outnumbered and not getting through.
So yes, let's jettison the thread and agree to disagree.
No hard feelings.

[BeautifulBurnout]

To your earlier point that most of the people who post here and downloaded the leak are true fans and will buy the CD anyway...i totally agree with you. But note that there are also a lot of new members on here. Let's hope they will also go any buy it. The leak links have appeared on other boards i've seen, and i dunno if those are fans who will go and buy it. One can't tell, but it's just realistic to expect that for everyone who does buy it, there's quite a few less albums sold becuase someone was happy enough with the rip.

To the best of my knowledge, the person that leaked this was not a Dirt and certainly did not announce on here that he/she had leaked it. I doubt if they even read the boards. It was out there. Once something has been leaked, it is obviously a personal matter as to whether one wants to listen to it in advance or not, but there is nothing an individual can do to prevent its dissemination. Once the damn is burst, it is pointless trying to gather water in a bucket and take it back up to the other side of the river again.

If I was given a promo copy of something with a "not to be distributed" caveat on it, I most certainly would not leak it to all and sundry the way this was. But the fact is, it is out there for all and sundry, fan or not, potential buyer or not, to leech to their heart's content. I would rather it wasn't but that is a sad fact of life these days.

Yes, it is damaging to the band when stuff is leaked. Without a doubt. But do I think that fans from a fansite downloading this is damaging them any further, once that initial leak has happened? Absolutely not. The analogy to the extra pack of chips in the supermarket doesn't quite work somehow.

[big screen satellite]

To your earlier point that most of the people who post here and downloaded the leak are true fans and will buy the CD anyway...i totally agree with you. But note that there are also a lot of new members on here. Let's hope they will also go any buy it. The leak links have appeared on other boards i've seen, and i dunno if those are fans who will go and buy it. One can't tell, but it's just realistic to expect that for everyone who does buy it, there's quite a few less albums sold becuase someone was happy enough with the rip.

i'm seriously of the opinion that the people who generally download albums are within (at least) three types -

those who download, and go on to buy the product when it is physically available - the long standing real fans... most of the people here...

those who download, just to listen to the material and then decide that its something that they like and then go back and buy the actual product (and even more material by the band) - i have personally done this - and as such a free, and illegal, download has resulted in my purchasing an album - which i might not have done previously

and

those who download, because they want to hear the album because its free, but would never have bought it in the first place - not actually a loss in sales...

in the 'old days' they would have likely have copied it off a friend, if it was recommened to them, like we used to do with cassettes back in the 80's - my mates used to copy albums they liked, and give me albums i'd never have bought anyway, so in effect the band were never losing out and actually gaining a 'fan' through this sharing...

its a difficult argument, but i honestly think enough people buy product in one way or another...

1 billion plus paid for downloads on itunes (at their extortionate rate of charging) is testment to the fact that people are still willing to pay for materials... i'd like to see stats, but no one will ever be able to verify properly that 1 illegal download = 1 lost sale - which they try and do with things like movie downloads...

when the phantom menace came out, fox claimed that x million downloads meant x million people didn't go see the movie or buy the dvd, which simply wasn't the case, i went to see the movie, came back and downloaded it, then bought the dvd... anyone who wanted to see the movie (as an event at the theatre) would have gone and paid to see it, those who illegally downloaded it, either went on to see it or had seen it, or were never gonna go see it in the first place...

i don't agree with people making money out of copying - i.e. dvd pirates, but sharing a good product is fair, imo

[geoff]

Let's be honest, there is definitely a 4th category of people who pirate instead of buying, flat out. I have friends who even pirate from their favorite bands.

But the "try and buy" people do somewhat make up for that. I too have bought quite a few records after pirating them. I always try to purchase something if i enjoyed it enough to warrant another listen.

Obviously, the "never would have bought in the first place" and the "definitely would have bought in the first place" people don't tip the scales either way.

So it's not as bad as the RIAA makes it out to be. It's definitely NOT 1 download = 1 lost sale. That's for sure.

[kagenaki koe]

there's a seperate thread for the 3 people to repeat whats been discussed and rehashed for weeks already.

whew, at least i know there will be 2 other people discussing with me:D

[hypeless]

preordered the special order long before anything was available anywhere, and last night I bought the album on iTunes Japan for the bonus tracks.

Paying up-front for the album during preorder absolved me of any guilt I might have had otherwise. Paying for the album twice just seals the deal.

To me, downloading the album early is far less of a crime than releasing bonus tracks in some markets and not in others - that's just plain cruel.

[Lx_Nen]

The simple answer for me is no.

I have a flac rip of the Japanese version in my car, and a paid for Japanese version coming to me by airmail. If I hadn't downloaded, I'd just have made that rip myself for in-car use (ever since I had a Japanese double CD worth a fortune stolen from my car, and long out of print irreplaceable CD scratched in my glovebox, I only use CDRs in the car). All I'm doing is timeshifting the arrival of the CD I've already paid for. I'll even get that 'unwrapping the new album' feeling when it does arrive, because of the bonus DVD.

I have no moral issues with 'try before I buy' torrenting, because I buy lots of CDs that I wouldn't have without bitotrrent.. and in this case it's 'try after I buy, but before delivery', which is even less morally objectionable to me.

Do I feel guilty about seeding back about 7% of the flac rip before I the download finished and I jumped off the torrent? Hmm... yes actually, I do.

I only feel ok with seeding things that are long out of print, and I fall back on the admittedly weak reasoning that if I didn't seed new albums someone else would. I jumped off the torrent asap, as I always do with new releases.

[toilet trained]

well...seems like im missing out, didnt even know there was a leaked copy.

funny enough, i still like buying CD's over digital downloads (which is do also legally, at times) becuase i listen to most of my music in the car, and it doesnt have mp3 capablities. maybe im living in the past?

anyway, whats this about a dvd box thing?

p.s...they should doa radiohead and allow people to download thier album and name their price. this should sort the real fans from the leechers

[Future Proof]

Rick and Karl are in the new issue of Teen Beat???

OMG!

[TheBang]

holden, the laws about buying and selling promos are black and white. it is illegal for shops to sell promos. it says so on the promo sticker. that copy belongs to the record label. the scenario is no different. both ways you're illegally obtaining the album before it's released to your region. these laws aren't enforced, but it's still illegal. it's just what laws you choose to follow.
Actually, property law and First Sale doctrine pretty much trump those little stamps the record companies put on the promos. Well, it's currently being tested in litigation, but I think the EFF's arguments will win.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070815-major-copyright-case-to-test-first-sale-doctrine-possibly-shrinkwrap-eulas.html

Let's be honest, there is definitely a 4th category of people who pirate instead of buying, flat out. I have friends who even pirate from their favorite bands.

But the "try and buy" people do somewhat make up for that.
To some small extent, but I think in reality, losses due to the flat-out pirates far outweighs any benefit gained from the "try and buyers".


those who download, because they want to hear the album because its free, but would never have bought it in the first place - not actually a loss in sales...

Obviously, the "never would have bought in the first place" . . . people don't tip the scales either way.
Actually, I have a problem with the people in this category. The ones who say "Well, this album I downloaded is not a lost sale since I never would have bought it in the first place," or "Downloading Photoshop isn't stealing, because I never could have afforded to buy it anyway." I find those rationales to be extremely disingenuous. The reason being is that these people are deriving enjoyment and utility from what they downloaded. Just because they would never have plunked down the money for it, doesn't mean they can suddenly enjoy the benefits of the works. That's just wrong.

[toilet trained]

^^^
what about if you use a downloaded version of Ablteton, and make some really crakin tunes on it...and then share your tunes. is there a point where the enjoyment others can get from your tunes outweighs the 1000 youv essentially gotten away with?

i always thought that line to be one hip-hop track and two electro-house tracks. get them down pat, and the programme is yours....seriously

[stimpee]

I think that downloading the album isnt such a bad thing.however, distributing it is. with a download youre only damaging the experience for yourself. by spreading it then you are contributing -even in the smallest way- to piracy and harming sales of the album.

thats why i dont care if you download it but i dont like to see any links to possible downloads on this forum.

[big screen satellite]

I think that downloading the album isnt such a bad thing.however, distributing it is. with a download youre only damaging the experience for yourself. by spreading it then you are contributing -even in the smallest way- to piracy and harming sales of the album.

thats why i dont care if you download it but i dont like to see any links to possible downloads on this forum.

thats kinda like seeing a car crash and not helping, imo

its ok for someone to distribute it and then everyone to grab it, but those people who do grab it cannot then share it... its backwards logic really... but i kinda get the point here on this site specifically

also its kinda like someone smashing the window of a shop, the first crime, then everyone else (looters) running in and grabbing the goods, the second crime...

i agree it shouldn't be shared on a site 'partly' linked with the band, and its not hard for people to find a leaked copy... so sharing here is wrong, but sharing the wealth elsewhere - thats a matter of moral conciousness for the individual -

if i had something worthwhile i'd share with a friend, but wouldn't wholly upload an album to a random site for all and sundry, because that to me personally would be damaging to the band...

the second issue is sharing after the album is officially released - is that more or less damaging???

[stimpee]

thats kinda like seeing a car crash and not helping, imo

its ok for someone to distribute it and then everyone to grab it, but those people who do grab it cannot then share it... its backwards logic really... but i kinda get the point here on this site specifically

also its kinda like someone smashing the window of a shop, the first crime, then everyone else (looters) running in and grabbing the goods, the second crime...

i agree it shouldn't be shared on a site 'partly' linked with the band, and its not hard for people to find a leaked copy... so sharing here is wrong, but sharing the wealth elsewhere - thats a matter of moral conciousness for the individual -

if i had something worthwhile i'd share with a friend, but wouldn't wholly upload an album to a random site for all and sundry, because that to me personally would be damaging to the band...

the second issue is sharing after the album is officially released - is that more or less damaging???i dont agree with your analogy about a car crash at all. people maybe dying in a car crash. and it has nothing in common with file downloading. or maybe youd care to elaborate. :confused:

as for the looting, that analogy doesnt work either. it would only work if you were stealing something from the window that you might have purchased in the near future, and the stuff that youve stolen isnt as easily replicated as an mp3.

If you want an analogy, then this is like busting the end-drug user and not the dealer. downloaders are drug users. if you start distributing the album then you become the dealer.

[King of Snake]

someone please bury this thread already :rolleyes:

[potatobroth]

You've said this before, and no one's doubting you're a fan who will support the band by paying. But this argument is weak. It would be like saying, i have a shopping cart full of food i'm buying, so i'm entitled to an extra bag of chips. I don't care if you bought 50 copies of the album. Did you pay for the one you downloaded? UW get no money from all the leaked copies. My suggestion is you pay then again for this copy.

This is such a ridiculous comparisson. You can't compare tangible items to sound or speech. It just doesn't work. For your real-world comparisson to work would you would have to make up an impossible analogy: It would be like saying I have magic box of cereal that pours two bowls to every one in the box. I'm paying for the box that the stores stock on the shelves (in fact I pre-ordered my cereal because I love it so much) but since it pours two bowls to every one, I'm going to take a taste now instead of waiting.

Dub's argument is not weak, its dead on. The people that should feel (but probably won't) guilty are the ones that have absolutely no intention of paying for the album. We preach to the choir here because 99% of us buy anything with the Underworld name on it.

[big screen satellite]

Dub's argument is not weak, its dead on. The people that should feel (but probably won't) guilty are the ones that have absolutely no intention of paying for the album. We preach to the choir here because 99% of us buy anything with the Underworld name on it.

i'd buy that quote right there... it says underworld in it...

how much you want??

[patrick]

i'd sell it for about 30 dollars...

i love the try before buy method. back in the day before this, i constant felt screwed when i'd buy an albumn that would end up being a bunch of shit with the one good track i'd heard previously. now i know what i am going to buy because it is only the albumns that i really enjoyed. do i feel guilty? slightly yes, because there are the fringe albumns that i should buy, but don't because of whatever reason, i didn't like it enough..

obviously underworld is a for sure buy, as I buy everything theat is available to me (with some exception to price for the really rare shit).

[sloff]

I'm resisting temptation so far, but its so hard to wait until mine comes in the mail.
I remember how happy I was when AHDO came out and I bought it in the shop on release day and cracked the package. It was a nice autumn day and the first play in the car was luscious. SO that's what I keep reminding myself about.

[negative1]

ah the price of being a collector,

ok, maybe i'm addicted, because i even buy albums i
don't really like...i didn't care much for 'adho' but i got
it anyway, and yes i bought this album too, but i don't
rank it up there with the 'essential' underworld....but
then again..maybe its too early for that..

-1

[lowbit]

I'd feel a lot clearer about the issue of downloading if it weren't for situations like the one we currently face, where I've paid for the album, people are able to walk into a store in Japan and buy it (with an extra track, no less!), and I still don't have it. Releasing it early in Japan with an extra track is purely manipulative, forcing fans (like most of us here -- the ones who, by the way, often work hard to promote the artist's work to others) to shell out a lot of extra cash if they want to hear all of the music.

I don't like the idea of people downloading my favorite artists' work for nothing, but I'm also bloody sick of shelling out extra hard-earned dough on a regular basis for "maxi-singles" and Japanese and Australian versions with tracks not available in my country. Yeah, it's been going on so long that we're used to it, but that doesn't make it any less arbitrary and exploitive. It's ridiculous.

[BeautifulBurnout]

i'd sell it for about 30 dollars...

i love the try before buy method. back in the day before this, i constant felt screwed when i'd buy an albumn that would end up being a bunch of shit with the one good track i'd heard previously.

Yeah, gone are the days of my yoof when you could go into a record shop, pick up a vinyl and ask the bloke behind the counter to let you hear a few tracks from it. Maybe there are still some indie outlets that would humour you, but I doubt very much HMV, Virgin et al. would let you do this if you asked. I know some stores do have listening booths where they have a kind of juke-box setup, but it is based on what they consider to be the albums of the week, not on a customer-driven basis.

[cured]

I downloaded it but I also pre-ordered the album several weeks ago. Underworld can always count on taking my money be it albums, concert tickets, shirts, other merchandise :)

I'm one of those people that only spends cash on bands I like. I couldn't care less about the off-downlaod of one or two songs off of one album I'll only listen to a couple of times.

[gambit]

No, because I'm getting it free in the mail anyway.

[the real stuff]

dunno if anyone else has been checking torrent sites, but on demonoid there's a labeled torrent "Oblivion with Bells" that is actually a music video of Rick Astley's Never Gonna Give You Up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_roll#Internet_culture)

[Flywaver]

dunno if anyone else has been checking torrent sites, but on demonoid there's a labeled torrent "Oblivion with Bells" that is actually a music video of Rick Astley's Never Gonna Give You Up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_roll#Internet_culture)

Eevn Better Than The Real Thing.......! :cool:

[dubman]

dunno if anyone else has been checking torrent sites, but on demonoid there's a labeled torrent "Oblivion with Bells" that is actually a music video of Rick Astley's Never Gonna Give You Up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_roll#Internet_culture)

you know you've got demand when a link turns into a rickroll.

[Sean]

I found a way to kill this thread.

CLICK ME! (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=071004233021.itudt24b&show_article=1)

[BrotherLovesDub]

I found a way to kill this thread.

CLICK ME! (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=071004233021.itudt24b&show_article=1)


And I could link to the article that says the RIAA is running out of money for all these lawsuits. You only get fucked if you are sharing files and especially files from major label artists. Your scare tactics are sad and useless. Did yer good buddy George bush ask you to post that? Show me a settlement where someone was simply downloading and not uploading/sharing files.

[BrotherLovesDub]

z0mg, do you look at porn? you may want to think twice, CLICK ME (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-murder02oct02,0,7521735.story?coll=chi_home_xpromo )

you'll get killed!

[BrotherLovesDub]

oh dear, have you ever ridden in a car? CLICK ME! (http://news.nky.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20070926/NEWS0103/309260012)

[Sean]

And I could link to the article that says the RIAA is running out of money for all these lawsuits. You only get fucked if you are sharing files and especially files from major label artists. Your scare tactics are sad and useless. Did yer good buddy George bush ask you to post that? Show me a settlement where someone was simply downloading and not uploading/sharing files.Ha ha! You dumb ass! I actually think the record companies are twats for doing this stuff. $220,000 for 24 songs? That's ridiculous! I only posted the link because it's freakin' scary how badly they're screwing people...messing up this woman's life over what would have been $23.76 in music sales? That is the work of a horrible entity.

For the record, I don't generally participate in file-sharing myself, but I also don't think that people sharing files really hurts artists in the long run. When you consider the additional exposure, and the fact that many people, like myself, will still buy the albums if they like the artist enough, then the complaint becomes kind of moot. I've actually discovered a few artists I never would have from a few years back when I was participating in more file sharing. I've since bought every album by Bola, all the stuff I could find by Tom Middleton, and some others.

Why do you make all these ignorant assumptions about me? You've been wrong pretty much every single time, but you do it with such anger and certainty. It's pretty uncalled for.

[aaron5000]

I found a way to kill this thread.

CLICK ME! (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=071004233021.itudt24b&show_article=1)

Precisely why I stopped buying as many cd's as I once was.

[mmm skyscraper]

Notice that this was a civil trial, not a criminal trial. I don't see this as a win for the record industry as she can dodge the payments for a long time.

The RIAA spends millions of dollars in litigation to only get back $222,000. No wonder the music industry is so awful.

[bas_I_am]

I want to meet the morons who reply 'undecided' to online polls

but then again there is no 'yes' option is there

[BrotherLovesDub]

the poll was a joke until some spokesmen for the RIAA took it seriously! it was a joke!

[Floating Dave]

Thing is that whenever piracy is discussed the same 'RIAA bullying' and 'oppressive record company' arguments come up again and again. And while I think both artists and consumers alike recognise this as having validity, I can't help but think that it's inaccurate (and maybe a little convenient) when considering smaller independent labels and artists.

Call me a dreamer but I'd love to see small, independent labels who take risks and release music that they are passionate about be considered on their own terms. We all know that Underworld have shunned 'major deals' in the past and appear to have created their own label to be free of that old school bullshit. OWB seems to have been the first physical release on this label but I wonder how much a leak like this and the subsequent downloads by all and sundry will impact on future CD releases?

Most people here had already pre-ordered the CD (and prefer CD quality audio to download quality) so hopefully that will count for something but I can't help thinking that this would have been a great opportunity for people here to send a message of support to the band by not giving the leaked version any oxygen.

Like I said.....dreamer.

[TheBang]

Thing is that whenever piracy is discussed the same 'RIAA bullying' and 'oppressive record company' arguments come up again and again. And while I think both artists and consumers alike recognise this as having validity, I can't help but think that it's inaccurate (and maybe a little convenient) when considering smaller independent labels and artists.
Well, conveniently, the RIAA only represents the major labels.