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  #161  
Old 07-21-2009, 02:49 PM
Sean
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Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j View Post
That's true, but it's an argument for "according to the bible, the first married couple was a man and a woman" and not much else. We've all outgrown the garden.
Clearly we haven't "outgrown the garden", otherwise the lame "Adam and Steve" slogan wouldn't exist. And it certainly isn't a logical argument - which is the point that was being made - given that the Adam and Eve story is a parable meant to convey the idea of creationism, which is hardly a logical theory. Simply dismissing this point out of hand doesn't make it cease to exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j View Post
This does swing both ways though. You can pretty much apply this to anything. How many of the people who want marijuana legalized simply want to smoke it themselves without fear of retribution? Does the RIAA really think that file-sharing hurts the artists? Likewise, couldn't it be argued that all the gays that support same sex marriage are biased and will argue in favor regardless of whether or not, deep down, they think it's a good idea for society? Wouldn't a midget argue in favor of lowering rollercoaster height standards being relaxed and call the theme parks "anti-midget rights"?
Okay, but that doesn't remove bigotry, or right and wrong from the issue, which was the point being made. Sure you can apply the "what's their motivation?" question to anything, but that doesn't change the fact that many people simply believe that homosexuality is an abomination and a sin that gay folks will burn in hell for. And they translate these bigoted beliefs into legislation that actually strips basic civil rights away from an entire group of people, like prop 8 here in California. So midgets wanting to lower the height requirements of roller coasters has absolutely no bearing on whether or not opposition to same-sex marriage is motivated by bigotry or not. In fact, I don't even understand the point you're trying to make with the above argument. Especially since file sharing actually does hurt artists (argument for another thread )

And to take it a step further, of course gay people who support gay marriage are in it to suit their personal desires. They don't want to be discriminated against! Do they consider the affect on society? Who knows, but in my personal opinion, bigotry-based discrimination has never been good for society, so the pro-same sex marriage crowd has a far more stable logic-platform to stand on than the cons do.
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  #162  
Old 07-21-2009, 03:21 PM
Deckard
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Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j
This does swing both ways though. You can pretty much apply this to anything.
Sure, but you were the one arguing that you don't think 'society' bases their opinions on fear and bigotry. I already accept that it works both ways - all ways. Your remark seemed to play that down if not outright reject it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j
Likewise, couldn't it be argued that all the gays that support same sex marriage are biased and will argue in favor regardless of whether or not, deep down, they think it's a good idea for society?
I agree that could be argued, because there's self-interest. But then we can move on to speculate about the motivations of the non-gay population - and on that score, I'd say the self-interest is more damning to the opposers. Keep in mind that few people, gay OR straight, are arguing for it because it's good for society - but many are arguing against it because it's bad for society.

Sure, on a broad level, people will acknowledge that defeating discrimination is good for society, but you know I'm not sure that's the principle thinking of those who support it. I think it's more realistic to say that there are:

(a) those who argue against it because they feel it's sinful or bad for society
(b) the rest who quite simply see no problem with it, and - in the absence of a convincing argument to oppose it - are generous enough to consider those of us who don't have that right.

Really, I don't see any great movement of people supporting it because they think gay marriage will somehow benefit society.

But then I've yet to see a single convincing argument against gay marriage that wasn't rooted in religion (or similarly woolly notions of a natural order or cosmic intention or whatever).
  #163  
Old 07-21-2009, 08:21 PM
Sarcasmo
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Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j View Post
This does swing both ways though. You can pretty much apply this to anything. How many of the people who want marijuana legalized simply want to smoke it themselves without fear of retribution? Does the RIAA really think that file-sharing hurts the artists?... ...Wouldn't a midget argue in favor of lowering rollercoaster height standards being relaxed and call the theme parks "anti-midget rights"?
Holy crap...you had the balls (albeit passive aggressive ones) to infer that my statements were somehow irrational? And that just applies to your last sentence. Your first two examples can't even relate to gay marriage. Or are you implying that smoking weed and filesharing are civil rights? Are you implying that gay people want to get married for the novelty of it? Like they're feeling left out of the club? Dude, gay people want to get married so that they can enjoy the same basic rights and provisions granted to married folks. If you can't think of any, Sean posted a ton of them on page 15. Your first two examples fail utterly because they simply cannot compare to gay marriage.

Your last example is so incredibly illogical as to be laughable. But I'm going to argue it, just so that you can't come back and say that I didn't. Theme park rides are designed for normal sized adults because there are exponentially more normal sized adults than there are little people. It's economics, Holmes. There is no way to make an average theme park ride safe enough for for a little person to ride, and there is no way to build a viable business out of a theme park designed for little people. The process of mechanical, electrical, and structural engineering that goes in to these places, not to mention marketing, food, park attendants, etc makes a theme park one of the most financially nightmarish operations outside of Las Vegas. Your example simply could not exist in reality. I'm fairly certain that Stephen Hawking proved this somewhere.

And if I sound condescending or insulting, I'm very tired. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of your arguments...
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Last edited by Sarcasmo; 07-21-2009 at 08:23 PM.
  #164  
Old 07-22-2009, 08:30 AM
dubman
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Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j View Post
This does swing both ways though. You can pretty much apply this to anything. How many of the people who want marijuana legalized simply want to smoke it themselves without fear of retribution? Does the RIAA really think that file-sharing hurts the artists? Likewise, couldn't it be argued that all the gays that support same sex marriage are biased and will argue in favor regardless of whether or not, deep down, they think it's a good idea for society? Wouldn't a midget argue in favor of lowering rollercoaster height standards being relaxed and call the theme parks "anti-midget rights"?
people are kinda twiddling about trying to "debate" this point with you but,
really
that was just fucking retarded.
  #165  
Old 07-22-2009, 10:13 AM
34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j
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Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean View Post
Clearly we haven't "outgrown the garden", otherwise the lame "Adam and Steve" slogan wouldn't exist. And it certainly isn't a logical argument - which is the point that was being made - given that the Adam and Eve story is a parable meant to convey the idea of creationism, which is hardly a logical theory. Simply dismissing this point out of hand doesn't make it cease to exist.

Okay, but that doesn't remove bigotry, or right and wrong from the issue, which was the point being made. Sure you can apply the "what's their motivation?" question to anything, but that doesn't change the fact that many people simply believe that homosexuality is an abomination and a sin that gay folks will burn in hell for. And they translate these bigoted beliefs into legislation that actually strips basic civil rights away from an entire group of people, like prop 8 here in California. So midgets wanting to lower the height requirements of roller coasters has absolutely no bearing on whether or not opposition to same-sex marriage is motivated by bigotry or not. In fact, I don't even understand the point you're trying to make with the above argument. Especially since file sharing actually does hurt artists (argument for another thread )

And to take it a step further, of course gay people who support gay marriage are in it to suit their personal desires. They don't want to be discriminated against! Do they consider the affect on society? Who knows, but in my personal opinion, bigotry-based discrimination has never been good for society, so the pro-same sex marriage crowd has a far more stable logic-platform to stand on than the cons do.

Maybe because I'm from Wisconsin, but I have honestly never heard the "Adam and Steve" argument used as anything other than sarcasm.

The point of the argument is that pretty much everyone is biased, not just the bigots and hateful. It's in response to this thread's general attitude which seems to be that the anti-gay marriage people don't just dislike the idea but are also homophobic, bigoted, hateful people. It is not the argument that I dislike. I don't see anything wrong with same sex marriage personally. But honestly I would be afraid to ever argue against it because no matter *what* argument I come up with I would be called hateful. Same as arguing against affirmative action. I don't see it as stripping them of their "basic civil rights". They can still get married, it just has to be someone of the opposite gender.

I don't wanna argue the file sharing thing, because my point is that it was ambigious. You think it hurts you, fine. Mike Doughty claims that he'd be flat broke if not for it. Could be argued either way, and I'd wager that most arguments made on the topic are biased in some way.
  #166  
Old 07-22-2009, 10:20 AM
34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j
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Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard View Post
Sure, but you were the one arguing that you don't think 'society' bases their opinions on fear and bigotry. I already accept that it works both ways - all ways. Your remark seemed to play that down if not outright reject it.
I'm not downplaying it. I'm just saying it swings both ways. Maybe I'm just too much of an optimist but I think that fear and bigotry aren't the reasons for half the things they're claimed to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard View Post
But then I've yet to see a single convincing argument against gay marriage that wasn't rooted in religion (or similarly woolly notions of a natural order or cosmic intention or whatever).
That it's a slippery slope?
  #167  
Old 07-22-2009, 10:25 AM
34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j
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Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasmo View Post
Holy crap...you had the balls (albeit passive aggressive ones) to infer that my statements were somehow irrational? And that just applies to your last sentence. Your first two examples can't even relate to gay marriage. Or are you implying that smoking weed and filesharing are civil rights? Are you implying that gay people want to get married for the novelty of it? Like they're feeling left out of the club? Dude, gay people want to get married so that they can enjoy the same basic rights and provisions granted to married folks. If you can't think of any, Sean posted a ton of them on page 15. Your first two examples fail utterly because they simply cannot compare to gay marriage.

Your last example is so incredibly illogical as to be laughable. But I'm going to argue it, just so that you can't come back and say that I didn't. Theme park rides are designed for normal sized adults because there are exponentially more normal sized adults than there are little people. It's economics, Holmes. There is no way to make an average theme park ride safe enough for for a little person to ride, and there is no way to build a viable business out of a theme park designed for little people. The process of mechanical, electrical, and structural engineering that goes in to these places, not to mention marketing, food, park attendants, etc makes a theme park one of the most financially nightmarish operations outside of Las Vegas. Your example simply could not exist in reality. I'm fairly certain that Stephen Hawking proved this somewhere.

And if I sound condescending or insulting, I'm very tired. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of your arguments...
If you think I'm using those examples to compare specifically to the issue of gay marriage, you're missing the point. Every man has the civil right to marry a woman and every woman has the civil right to marry a man. As for the theme park thing; do you believe that the owner of the park HATES midgets? Of course not. There



Quote:
Originally Posted by dubman View Post
people are kinda twiddling about trying to "debate" this point with you but,
really
that was just fucking retarded.
Then go and cry about it...for the love of god do not attempt to refute it
  #168  
Old 07-22-2009, 11:21 AM
Sean
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Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j View Post
Maybe because I'm from Wisconsin, but I have honestly never heard the "Adam and Steve" argument used as anything other than sarcasm.
Well, you're very lucky to have been able to avoid the bigots of the world. I've been taken by surprise and shocked as hell by them throughout my life, and all across the country. Just when you least expect it, BAM! Some bigot pops up and makes someone close to me feel like shit right in front of our faces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j View Post
The point of the argument is that pretty much everyone is biased, not just the bigots and hateful. It's in response to this thread's general attitude which seems to be that the anti-gay marriage people don't just dislike the idea but are also homophobic, bigoted, hateful people. It is not the argument that I dislike. I don't see anything wrong with same sex marriage personally. But honestly I would be afraid to ever argue against it because no matter *what* argument I come up with I would be called hateful.
Unfortunately, I think it is true that it's hard to take the anti-same sex marriage stance without being pegged as homophobic. But there is a reason for that, which is that the "defense of marriage" side of the debate has most publicly manifested itself in the form of legislation that strips basic civil rights away from a minority group. Historically, those kinds of policies have been inherently driven by bigotry, and that seems to be the case with many opponents to same sex marriage now based on the arguments I've heard. Arguments based on things like homosexuality being a "sin", or on the idea that same-sex marriages would somehow destroy the value and meaning of marriage despite the increasingly cavalier attitudes that contemporary straight couples have towards marriage. Being born with a less common sexual orientation does not qualify someone as a "sinner", and does not make someone a threat. But to make those arguments is to say, in essence, "you're different, and that's bad" (which, incidentally, is still one of my favorite "worst children's book" titles )

Quote:
Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j View Post
Same as arguing against affirmative action. I don't see it as stripping them of their "basic civil rights". They can still get married, it just has to be someone of the opposite gender.
Okay, now that's a messed up thing to say. I mean, just over 40 years ago, back when whites and blacks couldn't legally marry, the same argument could have been made this way:

"I don't see it as stripping them of their 'basic civil rights'. They can still get married, it just has to be someone of the same color."

I assume it's clear why that's a limitation of basic civil rights, yes? And as far as I can tell, it's pretty obvious how these two cases are extremely similar. If they're not to you, then I'm happy to discuss it further.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j View Post
I don't wanna argue the file sharing thing, because my point is that it was ambigious. You think it hurts you, fine. Mike Doughty claims that he'd be flat broke if not for it. Could be argued either way, and I'd wager that most arguments made on the topic are biased in some way.
I don't think it hurts me. I know for a fact that it has taken money out of my pocket, and the pockets of other lesser-known musicians I've worked with. Sure it's helped some others, but unfortunately, it seems that the prevailing attitude of those who illegally download music is that they're doing nothing wrong and/or hurting no one, and that attitude has to stop. But if we want to talk more about that, we should take it over to the "P2P/Torrent Sites" thread.

But subject matter aside, your focus on "bias" seems to run throughout all of these topics to an unusual level. While we certainly need to recognize where bias enters into all of this, it simply doesn't disprove or counter things like facts, or real-world consequences. My personal "bias" has led me to assert that file-sharing, when used irresponsibly, has hurt many smaller artists, but that doesn't remove the "fact" that it actually has. And your personal "bias" has led you to claim that gay people "can still get married, it just has to be someone of the opposite gender", but that doesn't change the "fact" that gay couples who want to marry have had the legal benefits that are afforded to straight married couples stripped away from them through legislation like prop 8. "Bias" only excuses just so much stuff before it becomes irrelevant.
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Last edited by Sean; 07-22-2009 at 11:24 AM.
  #169  
Old 07-22-2009, 11:46 AM
dubman
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Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j View Post
Then go and cry about it...for the love of god do not attempt to refute it
well no, that'd be taking you seriously
  #170  
Old 07-22-2009, 11:53 AM
34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j
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Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean View Post
Okay, now that's a messed up thing to say. I mean, just over 40 years ago, back when whites and blacks couldn't legally marry, the same argument could have been made this way:

"I don't see it as stripping them of their 'basic civil rights'. They can still get married, it just has to be someone of the same color."

I assume it's clear why that's a limitation of basic civil rights, yes? And as far as I can tell, it's pretty obvious how these two cases are extremely similar. If they're not to you, then I'm happy to discuss it further.
I figured someone would bring this up. I think if you compared society's bias vs. blacks a couple of generations ago vs. today's bias vs. gays you would be able to make a much stronger argument that the ban on inter-racial marriage WAS just a product of bigotry. I don't think there ever was a decent or logical argument for banning inter-racial marriage was there? I still know of many people who think of marriage as primarily a vehicle for couples who plan to have children. I think it's pretty obvious that gender is a much more significant distinction than race.

As for the rest; I don't have much to argue about there. I'm not saying there isn't some kind of bigotry out there, I'm just saying that assuming that ALL opposers to your point of view are bigots is pretty unfair.
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