The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j

I still disagree with this, this has more to do with the difference between a physical object and a digital one. If I shoplift 40,000 CDs, that is a big problem for the music industry - if I download the same amount, it's really not a big deal.

I completely disagree with you on this. We can't get married now.

[34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j]

Originally Posted by jOHN rODRIGUEZ

I completely disagree with you on this. We can't get married now.

What's the disagreement?

[34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j]

Originally Posted by Sean

You're placing the value of a musical product solely on it's physicality, which is simply not the case. The production of an album involves hiring musicians that need to be paid, hiring people to work the recording and mastering sessions, paying for the use of a recording studio, the cost of marketing, etc. There are a ton of expenses that are often far more costly than just the physical media the album is burned to.

And even the monetary investments aside, there's the time and creative investment put in by the artists themselves. This is their livelihood. Like anyone, they can only afford to continue to do their job - making music - if it provides them with enough financial return to fund the process. If they put in the time and effort to create something and make it available for purchase, but you simply take it for free, then what return are they getting to make it possible for them to make more? Do you do something for a living that you could afford to continue doing even if it meant you'd be losing money rather than getting a paycheck?

And ultimately, when you take something that doesn't belong to you from someone that you're not supposed to, whether it's a physical item or intellectual property, it's stealing. Actually, are you familiar with the concept of intellectual property? You may not be based on your repeated claims that illegally downloading a digital file is somehow not stealing, or at the very least, not a problem.

I KNOW it's not just the physicality of the object. And I do know what intellectual property is. But you need to realize that there's a difference between a digital file and a physical product. It is possible to 'steal' a digital file and cause absolutely no damage to anyone. There is an infinite amount of digital files. There is a finite amount of physical products.

The problem is that it's too hard to put a value on these files, especially since many studies conflict (often depending on whether or not the RIAA funds them). Remember how the music industry was preparing for Kid A to be a huge flop since it leaked 6 months early? (this was right at the peak of the Napster age) Remember how it hit #1 like experimental albums like that NEVER do?

Whether or not it's unethical I think is a real grey area. If I download a new CD that I really want instead of paying for it, yeah, that's unethical. On the other hand, just recently I downloaded some Primal Scream albums (which I otherwise never would have heard) and bought a ticket to their show; the band directly profitted from my downloading. It's not as cut and dry as you think it is.

[Strangelet]

Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j

I still disagree with this, this has more to do with the difference between a physical object and a digital one. If I shoplift 40,000 CDs, that is a big problem for the music industry - if I download the same amount, it's really not a big deal.

it is a huuuuuuge deal. I know that you know that many record labels are not sony pushing mariah carey. They are small start ups where 40,000 downloads could equate to sales for an entire quarter or total sales for a good chunk of their artists. That means bankrupsy. All because dl'ers are too intellectually lazy to put some comparisons on things, refusing to see the guy forfeiting the money as anything but a fat ass in a limo ear deep in hookers.

[Strangelet]

Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j

The problem is that it's too hard to put a value on these files

the reason you see it difficult is because its not your job. its the artist's preferably and if not them, the label. this isn't a turkish bazaar.

[Strangelet]

Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j

Whether or not it's unethical I think is a real grey area. If I download a new CD that I really want instead of paying for it, yeah, that's unethical. On the other hand, just recently I downloaded some Primal Scream albums (which I otherwise never would have heard) and bought a ticket to their show; the band directly profitted from my downloading. It's not as cut and dry as you think it is.

its only gray for any one person to download, in the aggregate, it is black and white ethical. During ww2 london had strict gas rations. everyone was supposed to turn down their heat during the winter. So does that mean its unethical for one person to heat it up a few degrees now and then? What if everyone did it?

[34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j]

Originally Posted by Strangelet

it is a huuuuuuge deal. I know that you know that many record labels are not sony pushing mariah carey. They are small start ups where 40,000 downloads could equate to sales for an entire quarter or total sales for a good chunk of their artists. That means bankrupsy. All because dl'ers are too intellectually lazy to put some comparisons on things, refusing to see the guy forfeiting the money as anything but a fat ass in a limo ear deep in hookers.

i'm meaning that i download 40,000 copies of something. it is different from stealing 40,000 cds.

i don't know how many startups are losing that many in sales. i am sure that some smaller record labels are suffering from file sharing. some may be benefitting from it.

[34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j]

Originally Posted by Strangelet

its only gray for any one person to download, in the aggregate, it is black and white ethical. During ww2 london had strict gas rations. everyone was supposed to turn down their heat during the winter. So does that mean its unethical for one person to heat it up a few degrees now and then? What if everyone did it?

that's dealing with a finite resource though. if 10,000 people who have never heard of your band downloaded a CD and went to a show, is that unethical, even if this clearly is beneficial for the band?

[stimpee]

Its quite simple.

Of course downloading 40,000 copies of something is different to stealing 40,000 CDs. But, downloading a copy of an album only has no effect if you werent intending to buy the CD anyway. The only time it makes a difference is when you were going to then got the free mp3s and didnt buy it. However, theres the flipside which is when you hear a few mp3s from a band you've never heard of, and then proceed to buy their CDs based on this.

The data based on the actions above is pretty much guesswork. The people discovering new music and buying CDs vs the people stopping buying and just downloading. Its very hard to quantify.

As for me, I dont buy very much music anymore, but I do have around 2000 CDs already so I dont feel too guilty about downloading stuff. I've given a lot of cash to the music industry, far more than the average joe. I do like and prefer physical product, and its getting harder to walk into a shop and buy a CD. I think that thanks to the music industry not being quick enough to provide an easy way to buy digital music, they are getting used to not buying anything and we'll have a generation of people used to getting all their music for free.

[34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j]

Originally Posted by stimpee

I think that thanks to the music industry not being quick enough to provide an easy way to buy digital music, they are getting used to not buying anything and we'll have a generation of people used to getting all their music for free.

That's so true; I can't believe that iTunes is still kind of a recent thing. I remember when I was in 1st grade my Dad telling me about the internet and how it was going to be the future of everything, including music, and that some day you'd be able to just get music on your computer and make CDs out of it. This was in 1993 mind you. There's a good article out there on how the major labels basically dropped the ball on the internet thing, dismissing it as just a fad, and most of the higher-ups didn't even really know what it was. Yikes.