French MPs vote to ban Islamic full veil in public

[Sean]

Originally Posted by stimpee

this does of course assume that its the woman who chooses to wear the burka and not the wish of her husband.

Absolutely. Surely, some women do wear it willingly as one of many expressions of their faith. And on the flipside, quotes like Hitchins' assume that every woman who wears a burqa is unwillingly compelled to do so.

If the concern is truly women's rights, then I would expect to see legislation more tailored to combating the core of the issue as opposed to what this is - simply targeting one of it's symptoms. And targeting it in such a way that will actually be harder on the women who ARE compelled to wear burqas by their husbands or clerics no less. Instead of just being forced to wear a burqa, now the woman will also be forced to pay a fine and is left stuck between a rock and a hard place - do as their misogynistic husband is telling them to do or face the consequences, or do as the country's laws are telling them to do or face the consequences?

[m.g.]

Well... the real thing behind all this is that the actual right government here is just sending a "message" to the 10% approx of extreme right voters so that they'll vote "correctly" at the next 2012 elections... the rest doesn't really exist and the women's right thing is just a pretext (studies here are talking of about less then 400 women actually wearing a burqa, in a country of 65 million with approx 5 to 6 million Muslims).

Apart from that, I have to say that I wouldn't feel very normal to meet a woman wearing a burqa in a school, a Post office or an hospital... which actually never happened to me here... (and I'm not saying that because I'm totally opposed to this government, being myself left oriented).

[myrrh]

Originally Posted by m.g.

Apart from that, I have to say that I wouldn't feel very normal to meet a woman wearing a burqa in a school, a Post office or an hospital...

This is what many people are saying but the reality to this is that if you are uncomfortable meeting a woman in a burqa, it is your problem - not the women wearing it. So why should she be forced by the law to not wear it because you are uncomfortable with it?

(That is not an attack at you directly, but rather using your comment to point out this issue)

[bryantm3]

myrrh, i rarely agree with you, but this is one thing we have in common. but i doubt you would show the same tolerance towards other issues under the sharia law system.

[Strangelet]

Originally Posted by Deckard

But which problem? That's what I'm trying to ascertain in all this.

fantastic question.

[m.g.]

Originally Posted by myrrh

This is what many people are saying but the reality to this is that if you are uncomfortable meeting a woman in a burqa, it is your problem - not the women wearing it. So why should she be forced by the law to not wear it because you are uncomfortable with it?

(That is not an attack at you directly, but rather using your comment to point out this issue)

Indeed... and the fact that I feel uncomfortable with meeting a woman in a burqa doesn't mean at all that I want and/or agree with a law "forcing" a woman to be dressed in non-religious way in a country known for its secularism.

[Deckard]

Sorry to keep putting a British spin on a French vote, but another poll has just been conducted in Blighty:

Islamic Burka Ban: 67% Of Britons Agree

More than two-thirds of people believe there should be a complete ban on wearing the burka across Britain, according to a Five News and YouGov poll. The Five News and YouGov poll revealed out of more than 2,000 respondents, 67% either agreed or strongly agreed with a British ban.

One of those who thinks the burka should be outlawed is the chairman of the Muslim Educational Centre in Oxford. Imam Dr Taj Hargey:

We're not telling these women what they can wear. We're telling them the only thing they should do is uncover their faces...

(Orwell would be proud)

...I think this notion that somehow this is a religious symbol, a Koranic requirement, is nonsense.

Those in the North of England and Wales are most in favour of prohibiting the burka - with 71% saying they would support such a move. Those in London looked to be the most tolerant, with 32% either disagreeing or strongly disagreeing on a ban. Following the capital was Scotland, where 30% of people did not agree with outlawing the Islamic garment.

[Deckard]

Originally Posted by m.g.

Indeed... and the fact that I feel uncomfortable with meeting a woman in a burqa doesn't mean at all that I want and/or agree with a law "forcing" a woman to be dressed in non-religious way in a country known for its secularism.

Same here. I actually resent the growing prevalence of Burqas around here, for the simple reason that I think what it represents is infantile, primitive and rather pathetic. I've had a conversation with someone wearing one, and I must confess I felt something ranging from pity to light contempt for her, even though I did my best to keep those feelings in check and tried to treat her with the same respect I'd show anyone. But like you say, that doesn't mean banning it is the right thing to do.

[Deckard]

In the UK the "debate" continues.

First, the Daily Mail was apoplectic with rage (when is it not?) when Conservative environment secretary Caroline Spelman appeared to defend the wearing of burkas.

INTERVIEWER:
There seems to be a bit of a dispute in the government at the moment about this issue of whether or not the wearing of veils and burkhas should be banned or not, a lot of public opinion would like to see that ban, seeing it as somehow un-British. Where do you stand on that?

CAROLINE SPELMAN:
I take a strong view on this actually. I don’t, living in this country as a woman want to be told what I can and can’t wear. That is something which both myself and Sayeeda Warsi have argued very strongly that one of the things we pride ourselves on in this country is being free and being free to choose what you wear is a part of that so actually banning the burkha is absolutely contrary I think to what this country is all about.

INTERVIEWER:
You don’t see burkhas as being repressive of women? You don’t see a lot of men wearing them do you?

CAROLINE SPELMAN:
Indeed you don’t but I think it is quite interesting, I’ve been out to Afghanistan and I think I understand much better as a result of actually visiting why a lot of Muslim women want to wear the burkha. It is part of their culture, it is part of understanding that they choose to go out in the burkha and I think those that live in this country, if they choose to wear a burkha, should be free to do so.

INTERVIEWER:
You really feel that? You don’t think it is a manifestation of a culture which puts women in second place?

CAROLINE SPELMAN:
I think it is something you have to understand the actual culture and it was probably only when I went there and spent some time amongst women that I really understood that for them it’s a choice. For them the burkha confers dignity, it’s their choice, they choose to go out dressed in a burkha and I understand that it is a different culture from mine but the fact is in this country women want to be free to choose whether or not to cover their heads, whether or not to go out in the morning wearing a burkha, that’s for them. We are a free country, we attach importance to people being a free and for a woman it is empowering to be able to choose each morning when you wake up what you wear.

The Mail followed shortly after with a piece by Yasmin Alibhai-Brown headlined The burka empowering women? You must be mad, minister. And Brown knows her onions - she is, after all, a Muslim. Even (gasp) a left wing one. (Mail readers' heads must have popped after reading that piece)

The Conservative immigration minister Damian Green was next up, insisting that the French ban was "very unlikely" to be copied in the UK. ("Telling people what they can and can't wear, if they're just walking down the street, is a rather un-British thing to do ... we're a tolerant and mutually respectful society.")

All the while, the right wing newspapers are doing their best to faciliate a calm and rational debate on this topic:



I'm confused. I thought it was only "the PC brigade" that called for things to be banned?

As in "Now the PC Brigade wants to ban the veil... in case it offends.... and YOU pay.... " etc etc

Btw, isn't that photo great? Nice and direct, communicating to the dear reader the gravity of what Britain is up against. Photojournalism at its best.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Deckard

In the UK the "debate" continues.

First, the Daily Mail was apoplectic with rage (when is it not?) when Conservative environment secretary Caroline Spelman appeared to defend the wearing of burkas.



The Mail followed shortly after with a piece by Yasmin Alibhai-Brown headlined The burka empowering women? You must be mad, minister. And Brown knows her onions - she is, after all, a Muslim. Even (gasp) a left wing one. (Mail readers' heads must have popped after reading that piece)

The Conservative immigration minister Damian Green was next up, insisting that the French ban was "very unlikely" to be copied in the UK. ("Telling people what they can and can't wear, if they're just walking down the street, is a rather un-British thing to do ... we're a tolerant and mutually respectful society.")

All the while, the right wing newspapers are doing their best to faciliate a calm and rational debate on this topic:



I'm confused. I thought it was only "the PC brigade" that called for things to be banned?

As in "Now the PC Brigade wants to ban the veil... in case it offends.... and YOU pay.... " etc etc

Btw, isn't that photo great? Nice and direct, communicating to the dear reader the gravity of what Britain is up against. Photojournalism at its best.

Is there no allowance in these people's minds for the fact that some women likely choose to wear the burqa, and shouldn't have doing so banned?

And off topic, I need to find that Daily Star cover to send to my friend Pete Burns. I can't seem to track it down so far - where did you get it Deckard?