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  #41  
Old 02-14-2011, 12:06 PM
human151
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard View Post
What do I think about what the conservative party leader said?

I think it was mostly a headline grabbing exercise even though I agree with some of it.

On his desire for the boundaries of acceptable behaviour to be based around modern liberal notions of equal rights and then applied to every section of society - well yes of course, though it's hard to disagree with a nice cosy generality like that.

On his insistence that the state should never turn a blind eye to cruelty and crime out of some misguided sense of cultural sensitivity - yes I agree with him, and yes it's happened too often.

However it's quite an extrapolation to conclude that these mistakes mean that the entire concept of multiculturalism has failed - even moreso that this failure is somehow the fault of big government.

If Cameron really believed so strongly in what he said, why, for instance, is he pushing so hard for faith schools and the segregation of children from age 5 and up?

His decision to make this speech on the same day that 3000 EDL supporters held their scheduled march through Luton chanting such delightful slogans as "Allah, Allah who the fuck is Allah" only heightened that suspicion.

And let me make the now-standard point... had a fraction of the number of Muslims held a similar march with just one chanting a similar sentiment about, say, Christians, it would have been all over the front pages. That's the reality about the kind of climate we're living in - and he said nothing to acknowledge that.
Its suspicious that the conference is munich fell on the same day as the EDL protests? THat was the reason for his speech.

this clip shows what a UK muslim wants to happen in the UK. What do you think about what he says?

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  #42  
Old 02-14-2011, 02:29 PM
stimpee
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
This was on TV tonight: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...Dangerous_Man/
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  #43  
Old 02-14-2011, 04:44 PM
Deckard
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Quote:
Originally Posted by human151
this clip shows what a UK muslim wants to happen in the UK.
No, it shows what an extremist UK Muslim wants to happen in the UK.

What you wrote is as misleading as quoting Pat Robertson and then saying "this clip shows what an American man wants to happen in the US." Yes technically it does - but it's disgustingly specious.

Hey look, here's an article that shows what a UK muslim thinks about what your extremist UK muslim wants to happen in the UK...

Please don't listen to Anjem Choudary

How many Muslims do you actually know?

Quote:
Originally Posted by human151
What do you think about what he says?
I think what he says is in a whole sphere to allowing people to merely dress, dance, eat, sing, etc how they want. And if you've been reading my other posts in this thread, you'll know exactly what I think about what Choudary has to say.

Choudary is far from representative of UK Muslims. Choudary probably isn't even representative of Egyptian Muslims or Turkish Muslims or Indonesian Muslims or Jordanian Muslims or even (gasp) French Muslims or Dutch Muslims. So why quote him? I don't for a second deny the problem of Islamic extremism. But why are you always conflating Muslims with extremist Muslims? You really are terrible for getting sucked into the propaganda of hate and division - propaganda that (from both sides) relies for its effectiveness on people with a weakness for succumbing to tribal prejudices like this.

Anjem Choudary insists on a clash of civilizations.
The English Defence League insist on a clash of civilizations.
Coincidence?

The rest of us - the majority of decent Muslims and non-Muslims who are living alongside each other quite happily with liberalism, secularism and democracy - just wish extremist Muslims like Choudary and extremist anti-Muslim groups like the EDL would go get an island together and have their gddamned clash of civilizations til their hearts' content, leaving the rest of us in peace. Seriously, we can get along just fine. I wish the simple-minded tribal-headed idiots on BOTH sides would just bugger off.

Last edited by Deckard; 02-14-2011 at 04:51 PM.
  #44  
Old 02-14-2011, 05:04 PM
human151
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
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Originally Posted by stimpee View Post

im unable to watch it...bloody hell
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  #45  
Old 02-14-2011, 05:21 PM
human151
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard View Post
No, it shows what an extremist UK Muslim wants to happen in the UK.

What you wrote is as misleading as quoting Pat Robertson and then saying "this clip shows what an American man wants to happen in the US." Yes technically it does - but it's disgustingly specious.

Hey look, here's an article that shows what a UK muslim thinks about what your extremist UK muslim wants to happen in the UK...

Please don't listen to Anjem Choudary

How many Muslims do you actually know?


I think what he says is in a whole sphere to allowing people to merely dress, dance, eat, sing, etc how they want. And if you've been reading my other posts in this thread, you'll know exactly what I think about what Choudary has to say.

Choudary is far from representative of UK Muslims. Choudary probably isn't even representative of Egyptian Muslims or Turkish Muslims or Indonesian Muslims or Jordanian Muslims or even (gasp) French Muslims or Dutch Muslims. So why quote him? I don't for a second deny the problem of Islamic extremism. But why are you always conflating Muslims with extremist Muslims? You really are terrible for getting sucked into the propaganda of hate and division - propaganda that (from both sides) relies for its effectiveness on people with a weakness for succumbing to tribal prejudices like this.

Anjem Choudary insists on a clash of civilizations.
The English Defence League insist on a clash of civilizations.
Coincidence?

The rest of us - the majority of decent Muslims and non-Muslims who are living alongside each other quite happily with liberalism, secularism and democracy - just wish extremist Muslims like Choudary and extremist anti-Muslim groups like the EDL would go get an island together and have their gddamned clash of civilizations til their hearts' content, leaving the rest of us in peace. Seriously, we can get along just fine. I wish the simple-minded tribal-headed idiots on BOTH sides would just bugger off.
you act as if Anjem Choudary is some fringe muslim. He is not. He is mainstream enough to have media outlets interviewing him. He was even on CNN.



very funny to see Fareeds reaction to him...lol

"speaking to you is like speaking to a pure marxist" Nice one Fareeed.

Of course I cant tell you how many muslims follow his views, but there are enough to make it a probelm. How many did it take for 7/7? A dozen radicals caused all those deaths. SO it does not take many followers of his views to cause a problem.

I also cat tell you how many people are followers of EDL. I had never heard of the English Defense league until you mentioned them. But what I can say is that the EDL is just a reaction to the UK government allowing the English culture to get pushed aside. I believe the EDL, or something like it, will only grow the more that Governments allow more and more immigrants in to their countries.

Let me ask you a question:

In your opinion, what is the reason for allowing immigration into countries?

Does your country need more workers, or should the government just keep allowing people in because they are nice and its the nice thing to do?

Is there a point where native born people have the right to say "thats enough?"
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  #46  
Old 02-15-2011, 02:33 AM
Deckard
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Quote:
Originally Posted by human151 View Post
you act as if Anjem Choudary is some fringe muslim. He is not. He is mainstream enough to have media outlets interviewing him. He was even on CNN.
He was on CNN? Oh he must be mainstream then. He's obviously not some attention-seeking extremist at all, but rather is a decent enough representative of UK Muslims. And even if he's only representative of a small number of UK Muslims, that still justifies the conflation of Muslims and extremist Muslims doesn't it? Yes. You're quite right.

Quote:
SO it does not take many followers of his views to cause a problem.
Really? And there's me writing in this thread that it takes millions to cause a problem. I feel so stupid having written that in my invisible pixels.

Quote:
Let me ask you a question:
Please do, because it's not like you're just going to follow up with LA-LA-LA-I'M-NOT-LISTENING, is it?

Quote:
In your opinion, what is the reason for allowing immigration into countries?
To piss off the natives.

Quote:
should the government just keep allowing people in because they are nice and its the nice thing to do?
Yes of course. And it doesn't matter if they're extremists and want to kill us. We should let them in. Everyone. All 7 billion.

Quote:
Is there a point where native born people have the right to say "thats enough?"
No. Native people must always be silent on such things. After all, it is Allah's will that by being native, native people relinquish all rights. Native men must be forced to wear a burqa - and native women must grin in a highly bearded and slightly menacing way. Or possibly vice versa, depending on what the immigrants decree.

In summary: to complain about immigration is racist, there is no problem of Islamic extremism, and democracy, liberalism and secularism can be disposed of along with the week's recycling.

Now, if you'll just process this post for me, passing it through that unique brain filter of yours, hopefully...
  #47  
Old 02-15-2011, 01:15 PM
human151
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard View Post
He was on CNN? Oh he must be mainstream then. He's obviously not some attention-seeking extremist at all, but rather is a decent enough representative of UK Muslims. And even if he's only representative of a small number of UK Muslims, that still justifies the conflation of Muslims and extremist Muslims doesn't it? Yes. You're quite right.


Really? And there's me writing in this thread that it takes millions to cause a problem. I feel so stupid having written that in my invisible pixels.


Please do, because it's not like you're just going to follow up with LA-LA-LA-I'M-NOT-LISTENING, is it?


To piss off the natives.


Yes of course. And it doesn't matter if they're extremists and want to kill us. We should let them in. Everyone. All 7 billion.


No. Native people must always be silent on such things. After all, it is Allah's will that by being native, native people relinquish all rights. Native men must be forced to wear a burqa - and native women must grin in a highly bearded and slightly menacing way. Or possibly vice versa, depending on what the immigrants decree.

In summary: to complain about immigration is racist, there is no problem of Islamic extremism, and democracy, liberalism and secularism can be disposed of along with the week's recycling.

Now, if you'll just process this post for me, passing it through that unique brain filter of yours, hopefully...
lol. I guess this is what happens when you run out of serious counter arguments.
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  #48  
Old 02-15-2011, 01:48 PM
Deckard
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Quote:
Originally Posted by human151 View Post
lol. I guess this is what happens when you run out of serious counter arguments.
It's what happens when I run out of patience and gradually lose the will to live.

  #49  
Old 02-15-2011, 02:18 PM
Sean
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard View Post
He was on CNN? Oh he must be mainstream then. He's obviously not some attention-seeking extremist at all, but rather is a decent enough representative of UK Muslims. And even if he's only representative of a small number of UK Muslims, that still justifies the conflation of Muslims and extremist Muslims doesn't it? Yes. You're quite right.


Really? And there's me writing in this thread that it takes millions to cause a problem. I feel so stupid having written that in my invisible pixels.


Please do, because it's not like you're just going to follow up with LA-LA-LA-I'M-NOT-LISTENING, is it?


To piss off the natives.


Yes of course. And it doesn't matter if they're extremists and want to kill us. We should let them in. Everyone. All 7 billion.


No. Native people must always be silent on such things. After all, it is Allah's will that by being native, native people relinquish all rights. Native men must be forced to wear a burqa - and native women must grin in a highly bearded and slightly menacing way. Or possibly vice versa, depending on what the immigrants decree.

In summary: to complain about immigration is racist, there is no problem of Islamic extremism, and democracy, liberalism and secularism can be disposed of along with the week's recycling.

Now, if you'll just process this post for me, passing it through that unique brain filter of yours, hopefully...
Ah, the actual moment of realizing that employing logic and reason with someone is futile. Frustrating as hell for you I'm sure, but it certainly makes for an entertaining read.

I've discovered a frightening group of folks here in the United States (and probably abroad as well, but I'm only referring to the Americans here) that absolutely refuse to hear any argument, no matter how well-reasoned and supported by facts, that acknowledges the glaring inappropriateness of painting all Muslims with the same brush. They simply won't accept that it's attitudes like theirs that have led to the recent rash of violence against American Muslims, vandalism against Islamic buildings in America, the wildly off base furor over the so-called "Ground Zero Mosque", and even historical events like Japanese internment camps during WWII. It's one of the more shameful trends I've ever been witness to here in the States.
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  #50  
Old 02-16-2011, 04:26 AM
stimpee
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
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Originally Posted by human151 View Post
im unable to watch it...bloody hell
should be able to with a UK proxy. If not, its on UK torrent site The Box.bz http://thebox.bz/details.php?id=147875
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