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  #31  
Old 01-25-2011, 04:04 AM
Deckard
issue 37
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: South Wales
Posts: 1,244
Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Quote:
Originally Posted by human151
I am not saying that all muslim people are bad, but I am going to assume that the majority of Muslims are very religious and their religion dictates their lifestyle.
Bit of a lopsided statement.
The possibility that 'the majority of Muslims are very religious' doesn't make them bad.
The possibility that 'religion dictates their lifestyle' also doesn't make them bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by human151
How can a devout muslim still practice their religion, which is their right, and still assimilate to the larger culture?
Answer is, that they can't.
1) Yes they can. And plenty do.
2) Why should anyone have to "assimilate to the larger culture"? Integrate with society, yes. Become a law-abiding part of society, yes. Assimilate with a certain culture? No. As long as it's law-abiding. If anyone told me I had to assimilate to the larger culture, I'd tell them where to go!

Quote:
Originally Posted by human151
even if its only 10%, that is still millions of muslims who have extreme views.
...and 90% who don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by human151
Of those millions who do hold these extreme views, not all are violent, but enough are.
...enough to warrant the kind of generalizations you've been making in this thread? If 90% of Muslims don't have extreme views, is that enough to counter your remarks that Muslims are incompatible with western countries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by human151
WHich other religion actually commands people not to accept certain people as their friends and kill for the cause?
You should take a look at Deuteronomy some time.

The fact that religious texts contain bloodthirsty calls to arms doesn't mean that adherents to that religion can't still identify themselves as belonging to that religion while also ignoring or otherwise interpreting those parts.

The fact that the Qur'an is arguably even more bloodthirsty and violent than the Hebrew Bible or the New Testament doesn't make it a black and white case of "Jews and Christians CAPABLE of selective interpretation, Muslims INCAPABLE". You need to go careful not to sink into that tribal mindset and lose sight of the likelihood that the majority of all three religions are not violent fundamentalists, and while there may currently be more Muslim fundmentalists than Christian/Jewish (for reasons which, I would maintain, go beyond the mere issue of what's in the Qur'an), that doesn't make it right or fair or accurate to start seeing the world through the lens of "Muslim vs non-Muslim".
  #32  
Old 01-25-2011, 09:38 AM
human151
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Posts: 36
Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
So it seems we are at an impasse.

You would be perfectly fine with the U.K., and Europe as a whole, one day emulating a middle eastern country. THis will happen, whether it takes 100 years or 300 is irrelevant.

I believe the people of Europe want to keep their cultural identity. Unfortunately, the people really have no say in the matter. The governments will do whatever they want.

Do you really think that most pakistani immigrants to England, for example, consider themselves British? Or, do they still consider themselves Pakistani?

If I were to move to Japan, and thought it would be for the rest of my life, I would consider myself Japanese because it was my new country. I would then begin to adapt to their culture. I would NEVER expect the culture to adapt to me.

I'll end my participation in this thread with this quote from a Spanish Language newspaper in Geargia, USA. Apparently, most hispanic immigrants do not consider themselves to be "Americans". This can probably be applied to most classes of immigrants.

"Americans don't read our paper because they can't read Spanish. They don't read our news, our editorials and the opinion of the community. But if they see a picture, they'll get it,"

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/01/...ex.html?hpt=T2

ha, another one of my right wing news sources, eh?
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  #33  
Old 01-25-2011, 10:39 AM
Deckard
issue 37
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: South Wales
Posts: 1,244
Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Quote:
Originally Posted by human151
So it seems we are at an impasse.
It would seem so, given statements like this...
Quote:
Originally Posted by human151
You would be perfectly fine with the U.K., and Europe as a whole, one day emulating a middle eastern country.
Are you actually reading what I'm writing?
Emulating in what way?
Which middle eastern country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by human151
Do you really think that most pakistani immigrants to England, for example, consider themselves British? Or, do they still consider themselves Pakistani?
Both, depending on what you ask.

Nationally, British.
Ethnically, Pakistani, unless they're mixed race.
Culturally... a bit of both.

I'm guessing you'll be uncomfortable with that response, that it won't satisfy your craving for a straightforward, unambiguous, "with-us-or-against-us" single word answer. You may even think I'm wriggling out of the question. I'm not; it's what I genuinely observe to be the case. Not everyone feels a need to structure their identity according to one side or the other.

I'm an Englishman living in Wales / a Welshman born in England. If anyone asks me a stupid question like "what do you consider yourself" (it's stupid because what does it actually mean?) then I'll answer that I consider myself both English and Welsh. If that complexity makes their brain shortcircuit, then that's just too bad. They can always go recover by watching John Wayne shoot some Indians and Arnie punch some Middle Eastern terrorists.

Last edited by Deckard; 01-25-2011 at 11:04 AM.
  #34  
Old 01-25-2011, 10:43 AM
Deckard
issue 37
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: South Wales
Posts: 1,244
Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Quote:
Originally Posted by human151
ha, another one of my right wing news sources, eh?
There's no such thing as a centerist news source in the US. It's ALL right wing to some of us!
  #35  
Old 01-25-2011, 11:13 AM
human151
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard View Post
It would seem so, given statements like this...

Are you actually reading what I'm writing?
Emulating in what way?
Which middle eastern country?
Its a pretty straightforward statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard View Post


Both, depending on what you ask.

Nationally, British.
Ethnically, Pakistani, unless they're mixed race.
Culturally... a bit of both.
Its a pretty straightforward question. If people choose to immigrate to a new country and become part of that society then they should consider themselves a national of that country. Think about the civil war in Yogoslavia. The Serbs considered themselves SERB and Christian. The Bosnians Identified themselves as Bosnian and Muslim. They were all Yugoslavian. Can I make it any more clearer for you.

Do you consider yourself to be "British"? if so, why? Could it be because you live in Britain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard View Post
I'm guessing you'll be uncomfortable with that response, that it won't satisfy your craving for a straightforward, unambiguous, "with-us-or-against-us" single word answer. You may even think I'm wriggling out of the question. I'm not; it's what I genuinely observe to be the case. Not everyone feels a need to structure their identity according to one side or the other.

Im not asking you to be with or against anyone. I am merely asking for a strightforward response to straightforward questions. You have a sneaky way about you in regards to actually answering questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard View Post

I'm an Englishman living in Wales. If anyone asks me a stupid question like "what do you consider yourself" (it's stupid because what does it actually mean?) then I'll answer that I consider myself both English and Welsh. If that complexity makes their brain shortcircuit, then that's just too bad. They can always go recover by watching John Wayne shoot some Indians and Arnie punch some Middle Eastern terrorists.

What does it actually mean? It means exactly how it sounds. Are you British or not? wales is a state of Great Britain. You may be Welsh, but you are still British, unless of course you do not consider yourself British.
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  #36  
Old 01-25-2011, 03:16 PM
Deckard
issue 37
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: South Wales
Posts: 1,244
Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Quote:
Originally Posted by human151
You would be perfectly fine with the U.K., and Europe as a whole, one day emulating a middle eastern country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard
Emulating in what way?
Which middle eastern country?
Quote:
Originally Posted by human151
Its a pretty straightforward statement.
...as were were my questions requesting elaboration.

After all, my answer will be different depending on what precisely you mean.

Which Middle Eastern country are you talking about? And emulating in what respect? Do you mean Iran's attitude to homosexuality? Or Jordan's? I'll take the one where it's not criminalized thanks. Wearing saris? Decorating with henna? Wouldn't bother me in the slightest if that took off in Britain. Wearing burqas and niqabs? No I don't want that - I prefer seeing someone's face, though I wouldn't necessarily ban it. Saudi Arabia style gender parity? Absolutely not. Politeness and respect? Yep, we'll take some of that. Theocratic rule? No, I absolutely would not be fine about that. Eating spicy food? Whatever...

See what I'm doing here? I'm applying judgments on a case-by-case basis. And if it looks like a certain practise or custom that I really don't like is taking hold in Britain, then I'll vigorously oppose it. However, what I refuse to do is bracket something off and call it 'indigenous culture' and expect everyone to adhere to it. What I also refuse to do is expect only immigrants to adhere to it, thus setting up a two-tier society where they have fewer rights than the rest in society.

When I make a judgment call about certain cultural practices, I'll make it based on the practice itself, not on the immigration status of the individual (and certainly not on their ethnicity, religion or country of birth).
  #37  
Old 01-25-2011, 03:19 PM
Deckard
issue 37
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: South Wales
Posts: 1,244
Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Quote:
Originally Posted by human151
Do you really think that most pakistani immigrants to England, for example, consider themselves British? Or, do they still consider themselves Pakistani?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard
Both, depending on what you ask. Nationally, British. Ethnically, Pakistani, unless they're mixed race. Culturally... a bit of both.
Quote:
Originally Posted by human151
Its a pretty straightforward question.
And I responded with a straightforward answer. But here it is again, broken down into more detail. Nationally, it's a technical question - whatever is on their passport. Culturally, some Pakistani immigrants to Britain will consider themselves British. Some will consider themselves Pakistani. If you're asking me to speculate about how most would define themselves, I'd say a majority would consider themselves both British AND Pakistani. (If this answer annoys you and you demand one identity or the other and you think I'm wriggling out of the question, then you need to rein in that tribal mind of yours and try to think in a less binary way! Because clearly not everyone feels the need to pick a single cultural identity.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by human151
I am merely asking for a strightforward response to straightforward questions. You have a sneaky way about you in regards to actually answering questions.
Ask a question that's less vague or less loaded with unnecessarily broad assumptions, and you'll get a better answer. If I don't share the premise of your question, then I'm unlikely to be able to provide you with one of the answers you were expecting. Where that happens, I'm trying to explain. That's not being sneaky, it's being honest.
  #38  
Old 01-25-2011, 03:28 PM
Deckard
issue 37
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: South Wales
Posts: 1,244
Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Quote:
Originally Posted by human151
Do you consider yourself to be "British"?
if so, why? Could it be because you live in Britain?
Yes and yes. But then it's not just because I live in Britain. It's also likely because I've always lived in Britain, so there are no other countries for me to consider. Had I been born in Australia or Pakistan and subsequently moved here, then who knows. And by the way this was the very reason for me bringing up the point about being English/Welsh, because it raises a similar question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by human151
Are you British or not? wales is a state of Great Britain. You may be Welsh, but you are still British, unless of course you do not consider yourself British.
I haven't denied my Britishness (and thanks for reminding me where Wales is, I'd almost forgotten. ) The reason I brought up the example of England and Wales is because, besides being in Britain, these are also two individual nations with their own sense of identity, their own sense of nationalism and loyalty, and it's a question that is raised surprisingly often. And when people ask it, I usually answer: I'm both. Probably I feel slightly more English if I'm being honest (country of my birth) which may explain why I initially described myself as an Englishman living in Wales rather than a Welshman born in England. But that may also have something to do with the strong sense of nationalism felt and expressed by many in Wales - overt expressions of nationalism are something I have never particularly cared for.

But the short answer is 'both' and 'who really cares' (besides those with a fixation on which tribe people belong to.)
  #39  
Old 02-13-2011, 01:29 PM
human151
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
So what do you think about what your Prime Minister said?

part 1



part 2



Im very interested on British peoples' opinion on this.
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  #40  
Old 02-13-2011, 04:00 PM
Deckard
issue 37
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: South Wales
Posts: 1,244
Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Quote:
Originally Posted by human151
So what do you think about what your Prime Minister said?
What do I think about what the conservative party leader said?

I think it was mostly a headline grabbing exercise even though I agree with some of it.

On his desire for the boundaries of acceptable behaviour to be based around modern liberal notions of equal rights and then applied to every section of society - well yes of course, though it's hard to disagree with a nice cosy generality like that.

On his insistence that the state should never turn a blind eye to cruelty and crime out of some misguided sense of cultural sensitivity - yes I agree with him, and yes it's happened too often.

However it's quite an extrapolation to conclude that these mistakes mean that the entire concept of multiculturalism has failed - even moreso that this failure is somehow the fault of big government.

If Cameron really believed so strongly in what he said, why, for instance, is he pushing so hard for faith schools and the segregation of children from age 5 and up?

His decision to make this speech on the same day that 3000 EDL supporters held their scheduled march through Luton chanting such delightful slogans as "Allah, Allah who the fuck is Allah" only heightened that suspicion.

And let me make the now-standard point... had a fraction of the number of Muslims held a similar march with just one chanting a similar sentiment about, say, Christians, it would have been all over the front pages. That's the reality about the kind of climate we're living in - and he said nothing to acknowledge that.
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