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  #21  
Old 01-22-2011, 12:16 AM
human151
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard View Post
From a cultural point of view, no it doesn't bother me - provided the laws and values remain enlightened and liberal. My opponents are the opponents of liberalism, not Muslims. I think where I'm differing from you is that I don't believe there has to be a single established "culture" that forever belongs to Great Britain. It's dictated by the people. .
The problem, atleast in my view, is that the culture is changing not because of the British people. The government is letting anyone in with a pulse from many differing clutures and that is changing the culture. How would the culture evolve if it were allowed to with just controlled immigration? We will never know that answer because the culture many European countries is being changed by outside forces comming into the country and forcing their new homeland to adapt to their culture. Why do the governments let so many people in? Does Europe, and America for that matter, have a shortage of people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard View Post
And if the people change, then the culture may quite naturally change. And so it should. Culture belongs to the people who experience it.
Again, the change in culture is being forced upon the natural born citizens of U.K. and other countries. DO the natural born citizens of those countries have any say in how their culture changes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard View Post
Now if people don't like the country becoming "more Muslim" or "more Pakistani" or "less British", then the thing to do is to take a stand against immigration. Don't take a stand against the people who are already perfectly legally here. Those people deserve the exact same freedoms to dress/speak/wear/worship what they like (including "clothing specific to a culture and/or religion") because the rest of us have those freedoms.
When the people do say that thay do not want their country and culture to change, people call them rascist and xenophobic. There is a stigma associated with speaking out. No one wants to be known as a racist. I am not a racist, but I am not afraid to speak out either, not that what I say really matters. The government will continue to let millions upon millions of people in to our countries, and I really have no idea why. Are western nations obligated to take in people from third world countries? Seems the answer is yes. I know that the majority of these people are great people and just looking for a better life, but our countries are broke and many cities in the United States aren't able to provide the services that they should. Camden, New Jersey is laying off about 50% of its police because they are broke. I dont't know how bad it is in Europe, but here its bad and just this week Los Angeles Country, in California, admitted that illegal immigrants cost the county $600,000,000 a year because of the benefits they receive from the county. Take a look at this story explaining that while 15 million americans are out of work, many immigrants new to the country over the past couple of years are working. I would guess that similar things happen in Europe as well.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70J37P20110120




Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard View Post
If a majority of the people in a country don't like the way immigrants are changing their country, then tackle the government on immigration. Don't judicially (or even just mentally) punish people for wearing certain clothes once they're here, when the rest of us can wear what we like.

Ban the full length burqa in certain situations by all means - but be consistent in other instances too, don't just make it about Muslims. In other words, if security is the issue, then also ban balaclavas and bike helmets. The debate about the burqa should be separate from the debate about immigration.
as was already said, most people and politicians for that matter, won't tackle immigration because once they do they are swiftly branded as a racist. Also, here in USA if any politician is against illegal immigration, he will not get the hispanic American vote. Apparently, most americans of Hispanic American origin do not want illegal immigration to end and furthermore, want the 15 million illegal hispanic immigrants here already, to be granted citizenship. Anytime a politician talks about really cracking down on illegal immigrants, the Hispanic organizations go on the tele and talk about how they are going to be boycotted and that they will urge all Hispanic Americans to vote against them. I have to laugh actually when I think if this. The Government has allowed so many illegal immigrants from one region to come here over the past 30 years, while they turn a blind eye, now that illegal immigration is out of control, there is nothing they can really do to stop them because so many of them have had children who are now of voting age and have become legal themselves that the conservative party is unable to stop illegal immigration if they wanted to because if they did then they would be voted out by all the Hispanics. LMAO.

Sorry about jumping to different topics, but they all tie in together. I'll leave you with this link about the muslim actress from the Harry Potter films.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70K3DP20110121

Apparently, the Males of the family want to force her to adhere to her muslim culture, while she wants to be just British. This is a cultural dispute. In their country of origin this act is completely acceptable.

Also, I am pretty sure that you are a liberal person. What about the muslim religion/culture makes you think that the majority of the muslim people would accept your way life and thoughts? In my opinion, the muslim religion is the polar opposite to liberalism.
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  #22  
Old 01-22-2011, 01:08 AM
bryantm3
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Quote:
Originally Posted by human151 View Post
The US is known for racism against hispanics? Are you fucking kidding me?

THe main problem with the muslims in france is that they don't want to be French. If you're going to move to a new country atleast respect the culture of the country your moving to. Immigrants usually immigrate somewhere for a better life, and with hard work they usually get a better life. The least they could do is try to adapt, just a little, to the new coutries' culture. But a very large percentage of muslims choose to live as if they're still in a muslim country. I went to London recently and say many muslim women walking around with the black costume all over their body and face. Even if you disagree with me, you must admit this is disrespectful to the established culture. There are even so called "no go zones".

"Islamic extremists have created "no-go" areas across Britain where it is too dangerous for non-Muslims to enter, one of the Church of England's most senior bishops warns"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...n-Muslims.html

Things like this is very respectful to a country which has allowed people from another culture to immigrate there.

you see, i don't know what the big deal is here. in the united states we have ethnic neighbourhoods all over the place— this is exactly what i'm talking about. you want them to stop being muslim because they've entered your country. i can understand wanting them to learn the french language so they can communicate and to do basic things like that, but to make them disavow their religion and culture is entirely unreasonable.

let's put it this way: i'm jewish and i have to keep kosher to a degree— this isn't forced upon me, it's a choice, but in most places like denny's or whatnot, i can get by by getting food i can be reasonably sure doesn't have non kosher food in it— eggs, bagels, fish, etc. however, in chinese restaurants it is a totally different thing, even here in the US because they use oyster sauce, clam sauce, pork and shrimp in everything. over in china it is even worse for someone trying to keep kosher— they eat rats, snakes, horse, dog, etc.

what if i was to move to an asian country? i would probably want to live in a jewish or american neighbourhood where i could be assured i was getting food that was okay for me to eat. so am i being "rude" to the country i am moving to? no, i am not going to drop my personal beliefs just because i move to a country. in addition, jews more observant than i am keep the sabbath, wherein they can't drive and must walk to the synagogue— making it a necessity to live together in a tight knit area. in the same way, muslims have halal restrictions and probably many other more observances like wearing a burkha. has it ever dawned on you that perhaps the reason they stay close together is because they are afraid of people discriminating against them because they choose to wear a burkha?

it's not just jews— here in the US, we have black neighbourhoods where it's "not safe to go for white people" (i'm not talking about high-crime areas), but you find that if you go to those places, the people aren't rude to you and they won't hurt you— there just happens to be a lot of black people who live in that area because they have a culture they like to celebrate together, rather than segregate from each other and lose their identity. it's just that some white people don't like that, or it bothers them, so they choose not to go there. but not in decades has anyone tried to limit the black people from living in the manner they choose to live in the united states— together, because that would be illegal and violating their rights.

let's turn this around, frenchy. you live in a neighbourhood where a lot of french people live. a ton of muslims move in and establish a mosque in the area, halal food restaurants, etc. to get your snails and whatnot, you decide to congregate together in a small section of town you like to call the "french quarter". the muslims then gang up on you and say things like "French extremists have created "no-go" areas across France where it is too dangerous for Muslims to enter", and "The least they could do is try to adapt, just a little, to our neighborhood's culture, such as eating halal and covering their heads. But a very large percentage of French choose to live as if they're still in a French neighbourhood".

how in the heck is this not racism?

Last edited by bryantm3; 01-22-2011 at 01:28 AM. Reason: foul language that i am sorry i used.
  #23  
Old 01-22-2011, 01:27 AM
bryantm3
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Quote:
Originally Posted by human151 View Post

Sorry about jumping to different topics, but they all tie in together. I'll leave you with this link about the muslim actress from the Harry Potter films.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70K3DP20110121

Apparently, the Males of the family want to force her to adhere to her muslim culture, while she wants to be just British. This is a cultural dispute. In their country of origin this act is completely acceptable.

Also, I am pretty sure that you are a liberal person. What about the muslim religion/culture makes you think that the majority of the muslim people would accept your way life and thoughts? In my opinion, the muslim religion is the polar opposite to liberalism.
well, have you ever heard of house rules? for example, if you're living at home with your dad and mum still, and you bring playboy magazines and kegs of beer in the basement. your parents lay down the law and say "we aren't going to have that in our house". this is a reasonable responsibility a parent should be able to take. when it becomes different is when the parent or relative steps over the line and begins violating the law. where it becomes different is when the person moves away and the family follows them and refuses to leave them alone. there is a difference between legal acts of the parents and violating the law.

in this situation, the law was clearly violated. but that's not what you were aiming at before— before you were discussing cultural differences that are entirely legal for anyone in france or britain to take part in, and how a certain culture should not be allowed to have those rights. now you're talking about the differences in law between the two countries. so it seems we're just moving the line around— what is the line to cross in your opinion? in my opinion, the immigrants should be allowed to do whatever they wish to do as long as they don't violate standing laws in that country. to me that is the extent that they are required to adapt.
  #24  
Old 01-22-2011, 07:10 AM
Deckard
issue 37
 
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Quote:
Originally Posted by human151
I'll leave you with this link about the muslim actress from the Harry Potter films...
Thanks, but ask yourself - why didn't you leave me with the link about the Muslim woman whose brother didn't attack his sister?

Think about it...
  #25  
Old 01-22-2011, 07:57 AM
Deckard
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Let me try to establish where I'm coming from with this by using some figures (admittedly pulled out my ass, but the accuracy isn't the point here - the reasoning behind my conclusion is.)

Let's look at the % of different family types who might have a family member that would act like this Harry Potter actress' brother. No offence intended from the order of this list, but for the sake of argument let's say that...

0.02% of non-religious families would have someone who'd act like this.
0.05% of Christian families
0.08% of Jewish families
0.09% of Hindu families
0.19% of Muslim families

Now from this data there would clearly appear to be a bigger problem among Muslim families than families of any other religion (and I readily suspect that would be the case in real life). In this case, they are almost ten times more likely to contain a family member who would physically attack their sister for not marrying in their faith than a similar person from a family at the other end of the scale.

BUT... it would still mean that more than 99% (or a vast majority) of Muslim families are NOT like that.

And that un-newsworthy majority would by definition be invisible to you and to many like you - essentially decent people I think - but who continue to fall for this cognitive error, and latch onto the spate of stories with the kind of confirmation bias that does your decency no favors. You'll tell yourself things like "well these things are constantly in the newspapers and on TV and it's ALWAYS Muslims so it must be true" - but each time you'll be failing to apply a proper level of critical analysis and perspective to what you're hearing or reading.

Now I want to assure you that I have no problem in recognizing the greater problem among Muslim families than families of other religions, and I'm under no illusions about the much greater problem of extremism. I know my experience of Muslims - with my partner's family and friends, and with my own experiences in London - are certainly not going to be universal.

The problem I have is when you and many others come out with pronouncements about "Muslims" (they're illiberal, they're anti-social and isolationist, etc) as if they're all the same. Not "some Muslims". Not "a few Muslims". Not "the less libeal Muslims" No... just "Muslims". Or statements like "The main problem with the muslims in france is that they don't want to be French" (from earlier in the thread).

Surely you can see how wrong, unfair, unkind and potentially counterproductive this kind of talk is?
  #26  
Old 01-22-2011, 08:13 AM
Deckard
issue 37
 
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Btw, it's not racist to oppose immigration or even to prefer your country's original 'culture'.

The difficulty has always been that a lot of actual racists and xenophobes ARE drawn to anti-immigration pro-indigenous culture positions.

And so guilt-by-association takes root.

As long as you always try to be precise in your language, specific in your outlook (ie. try to be aware of your generalizations), and kind in your heart, then ignore those calling you a racist.

Ultimately though, the fact that some people may wrongly label you racist for speaking out against the current scale or scope of immigration doesn't alter the fact that the debate needs to take place at the level of immigration, not at dictating how those people, once here, should dress/eat/worship.

Once here, we should all have the same freedoms. We may debate those freedoms, we may restrict or expand them, but that should happen irrespective of the religion or cultural origin of individuals.

Last edited by Deckard; 01-22-2011 at 08:16 AM.
  #27  
Old 01-24-2011, 03:21 PM
human151
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
http://www.aolnews.com/2011/01/24/mu...aleki-accused/

the above link is an "honor killing" this time, in Airizona. Quoting the article "Faleh Almaleki, who had moved the family from Iraq to Arizona, apparently felt his 20-year-old daughter had become too Westernized". WHy would you move the the "west" and not expect your young daughter to adapt. How many instances like this do we not hear about? How many which stop short of killing are never reported? There is a pattern here. Many muslims (not all) do not want to "westernize". Is this what we should expect of our immigrants, both in Europe and the U.S.? Apparently, Deckard et al, you believe they don't need to adapt while many do, probably the majority. THats the heart of the issue here.

saying everyone needs to have freedoms to do what ever they want, within the law. is one thing. Outside cultural forces changing the indigenous culture is another, and there should be a distinction.

I am not saying that all muslim people are bad, but I am going to assume that the majority of Muslims are very religious and their religion dictates their lifestyle. How can a devout muslim still practice their religion, which is their right, and still assimilate to the larger culture? Answer is, that they can't, in many cases. WHich is where extremism come into play, in my opinion. Not all muslims are extremist, but there is enough, even if its only 10%, that is still millions of muslims who have extreme views. Of those millions who do hold these extreme views, not all are violent, but enough are.

http://www.wordsandwar.com/2008/01/2...kill-infidels/

How many muslims feel the same way as the man from the above link? How many muslims in Europe feel this way? I would say that enough do, which is a huge problem.

"Jihad against non-Muslims seemed to me to be a win-win situation. The following verse, commonly cited by Jamaah members, validated my duty to die for Allah: “Allah has purchased the believers, their lives and their goods. For them [in return] is the garden [of paradise]. They fight in Allah’s cause, and they slay and are slain; they kill and are killed… it [paradise] is the promise of Allah to them” (Koran 9:111)."

“O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends: They are but friends to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them [for friendship] is of them [an infidel]. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust” (Koran 5:51)."

WHich other religion actually commands people not to accept certain people as their friends and kill for the cause?

now you may know some muslim people that do not adhere to this, but how many Muslims are devout and do believe in this and most everything else in the Koran? Is it okay to have people who believe in this stuff and acting in the muslim lifestyle, many of whom refuse to try to adapt to thier new country, living in Europe? I would say the European liberal cultures and Islam are incompatible.

Now I dont go to the site quoted above, I just google it. I dont know if thier right wing or anything. I am not right wing (in before accusations ;-)).
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Last edited by human151; 01-24-2011 at 05:43 PM.
  #28  
Old 01-24-2011, 08:02 PM
bryantm3
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
there are a lot of verses that are like this that are taken entirely out of context, in the koran, the new testament, and the tanakh. fundamentalists use literal, out of context interpretations to support their own radical claims— this is true across all religions that have a sacred text.

this is the context in which most muslims find this verse:

http://www.omeriqbal.com/a/13

if the person who had decided to be a suicide bomber had actually read the story around the quote, maybe he wouldn't have made the decision he did, but i don't believe he would've changed his mind anyway— that's the way fundamentalists are, they don't look for answers in the bible/koran, they make a decision based on their own prejudices and skewed morality systems, and then they search through the text high and low for some out-of-context quote that supports their ridiculous claim.
  #29  
Old 01-25-2011, 03:31 AM
Deckard
issue 37
 
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Quote:
Originally Posted by human151
Apparently, Deckard et al, you believe they don't need to adapt while many do, probably the majority. THats the heart of the issue here.
Once again, you're not being specific enough.

Adapt in what way?

Do I think we should insist that immigrants adapt to the dominant language?
Yes.

Do I think we should insist they adapt to/abide by existing laws?
Yes.

Do I think we should insist that honor killings are unacceptable?
Yes.

Do I think we should insist that they dress like so-called "Westerners"?
No.

Do I think we should insist that they don't be so darned religious?
No.

In other words, you need to be more specific, not only in how you write but - I suspect - in how you think. You will never progress on this or any other issue until you learn to move beyond this low-resolution, broad-tipped brush approach.
  #30  
Old 01-25-2011, 03:50 AM
Deckard
issue 37
 
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Quote:
Originally Posted by human151
saying everyone needs to have freedoms to do what ever they want, within the law. is one thing. Outside cultural forces changing the indigenous culture is another, and there should be a distinction.
Well not only would setting a distinction between the two require a list of what constitutes "indigenous culture" in the first place (not laws, but culture), it would also require a blind spot to all the cultural 'outside influences' you've accepted in the past, either knowingly or unknowingly.

My thoughts go something like this:
  • Unlike a country's legal system, its culture is NOT set in stone.
  • At any one time, a country's overall culture is dependent on the people in it and influenced by the sum total of what has gone before.
  • Culture is not and never has been uniform for everyone.
  • Citizens (immigrant or 'indigenous') should have equal rights, responsibilities and freedoms
  • That includes equal freedom to dress, eat, dance, sing, marry whomsoever they wish.
  • It also includes the freedom to oppose or dislike or even abhor alcohol, revealing clothes, consumerism, promiscuity and homosexuality.
  • However the LAW requires a tolerance of others who enjoy those things, and a freedom to challenge and be challenged back.

Find something disagreeable about an attitude or custom? Then oppose the attitude or custom - not people of an entire religion (because that's way too broad).

Also feel free to take your argument up with the government allowing the scope or scale of immigration that's sparking this apparently disagreeable cultural change. Address it at the immigration stage. Not at the "once they've got here" stage. Because once they've got here, they are citizens, and they have the same freedoms including the freedom to be different. That's not some liberal PC nonsense. It's quite simply that if they don't have that latter freedom - to be different - then they have LESS freedoms than indigenous people who also choose to be different or more culturally influenced from other countries.

Last edited by Deckard; 01-25-2011 at 04:08 AM.
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