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  #11  
Old 10-23-2010, 02:19 AM
bryantm3
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
i'll admit, i don't know much about the netherlands. most of what i was talking about was in reference to france, so forgive me for making broad-sweeping statements.

i also would like to note the difference between halal and kosher. there are more muslims in the EU, and there are more jews here, so understanding of those laws cross-atlantic is probably difficult for those that aren't jewish or muslim.

the kosher laws basically make it so that it is pretty much impossible to make all meat kosher. every animal has to be inspected to make sure it isn't sick, and even afterwards the lungs must be checked. within 24 hours, all blood has to be removed from the meat through salting and rinsing. halal is much more lenient, as it only requires a ritual slaughter. kosher involves that and the things listed above. to make all meat kosher would require a lot of time and resources, and it wouldn't be practical to make kosher meat widely available outside the US and israel. i'm not making a case that europe is anti-semitic based on this fact, but i thought i should add that there is a difference between halal and kosher.

back to my argument, however, i guess i kind of mixed in my dislike for the limitations of personal expression in europe with my argument against anti-semitism.

i guess that my main point is that europe over the past twenty or so years has set up precedent to remove basic civil liberties with its move towards more socialistic policies (not saying this is a good or a bad thing, just stating what is true). as europe is moving towards those policies, civil liberties get in the way, it's just a fact. so you are slowly seeing things such as cameras on street corners, cameras that snap a picture of your license plate if you are going too fast, strict limitations on hate speech, etc. for better or for worse, we don't have these things in the united states so there is no precedent. however, europe has created a precedent that the wrong sort of people who get in power can use to impose other limitations on personal expression, such as the wearing of a burkha.

i don't really think that there are more racists in europe, but i really do think that they have more ability to pass racist laws based on legal precedent than we would in the US. for example, no one in the US would have a leg to stand on trying to pass a ban on burkhas, because the precedent in the US is to allow all forms of speech and expression, whether they pose harm to society or not (we have no hate speech laws in the US. the only laws we have are against inciting riots, which is the difference between someone saying 'i hate muslims' and 'lets go lynch the muslims'. obviously, there is not much difference in intent, but in action there is a huge difference). the ACLU would immediately battle it in court and would most likely win.
  #12  
Old 10-24-2010, 10:56 AM
froopy seal
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Thanks for clarifying your point, Bryant. That sounds a lot more coherent than your first, shortened rambling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bryantm3 View Post
back to my argument, however, i guess i kind of mixed in my dislike for the limitations of personal expression in europe with my argument against anti-semitism.

i guess that my main point is that europe over the past twenty or so years has set up precedent to remove basic civil liberties with its move towards more socialistic policies (not saying this is a good or a bad thing, just stating what is true). as europe is moving towards those policies, civil liberties get in the way, it's just a fact. so you are slowly seeing things such as cameras on street corners, cameras that snap a picture of your license plate if you are going too fast, strict limitations on hate speech, etc. for better or for worse, we don't have these things in the united states so there is no precedent. however, europe has created a precedent that the wrong sort of people who get in power can use to impose other limitations on personal expression, such as the wearing of a burkha.
I agree that in the States freedom of expression does indeed traditionally have a far greater weight than in Europe, especially compared to Germany with all its bans on free speech due to the Nazi history.

On the other hand, we Europeans have a far greater sensitivy concerning personal data and privacy - which again may constrain freedom of speech (both rights frequently oppose one another in a legal weighting). As a result, "anti-terror" legislation and general powers of American secret services seem to have a considerably more restrictive effect on personal immersion into information technologies, or at least grant authorities an excessive enforcement arsenal, with little monitoring by parliaments and courts. Platitudes such as the SWIFT Agreement, the Passenger Name Records (PNR) Agreement, the level of US privacy law in general (as assessed by the European Commission under the 1995 EU Directive on Data Protection), and revealing social network default preferences come to mind.
  #13  
Old 01-14-2011, 10:48 PM
human151
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryantm3 View Post
the 'government endorsed' method of slaughter involves shooting a nail into the brain of the animal, spreading brain matter throughout the rest of the animal. you tell me how that is more safe than the traditional method. sounds either nanny state or anti-semetic.

i'm not saying the US doesn't have its problems. out west (and here in the south as well, but GA is kind of more the 'southeast' than it is like TX, LA, MS, etc.) there is a lot of racism towards immigrant (and non-immigrant) hispanics, and it's completely intolerable by me. i went with my family to buy a car a couple of years ago, and the guy who did a test drive with us started making these broad-sweeping statements about hispanics, and we decided we'd never go back there again, forget buying their car.

but as much as the US is known for it's racism against hispanics, europe is known for its racism against muslims and jews. i mean, look at france for goodness' sake. they've treated the algerians who have been there for generations like second class citizens for a very long time. if you want proof look at the riots a few years back.

the same thing goes for banning kippot, taqiyah, islamic veils, etc. over the past few years. it's not 'separation of church and state', it's removal of basic human rights through thinly-veiled racism.

The US is known for racism against hispanics? Are you fucking kidding me?

THe main problem with the muslims in france is that they don't want to be French. If you're going to move to a new country atleast respect the culture of the country your moving to. Immigrants usually immigrate somewhere for a better life, and with hard work they usually get a better life. The least they could do is try to adapt, just a little, to the new coutries' culture. But a very large percentage of muslims choose to live as if they're still in a muslim country. I went to London recently and say many muslim women walking around with the black costume all over their body and face. Even if you disagree with me, you must admit this is disrespectful to the established culture. There are even so called "no go zones".

"Islamic extremists have created "no-go" areas across Britain where it is too dangerous for non-Muslims to enter, one of the Church of England's most senior bishops warns"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...n-Muslims.html

Things like this is very respectful to a country which has allowed people from another culture to immigrate there.
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Last edited by human151; 01-14-2011 at 11:11 PM.
  #14  
Old 01-15-2011, 11:45 AM
Deckard
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Quote:
Originally Posted by human151
If you're going to move to a new country atleast respect the culture of the country your moving to.... I went to London recently and say many muslim women walking around with the black costume all over their body and face. Even if you disagree with me, you must admit this is disrespectful to the established culture.
Oh come on Chris, does it really matter whether clothing is or is not considered respectful to a country's "established culture"? (whatever that is)

This isn't North Korea where fashions have to be officially sanctioned.

The only thing I particularly give a stuff about are intolerant values, medieval attitudes, exemptions to the rule of law, and hate - ie. I don't want to see the propagation of those things, least of all where I live. And if the full veil is being forced on the woman, then yes I give a stuff about that. If someone is demanding an exemption from a legitimate rule (e.g. hygienic dress code in hospitals, facial visibility in certain situations, etc) because it's "not their culture" or "their religion insists otherwise" (and if a reasonable and satisfactory compromise can't be reached), then yes I give a stuff about that - and I would have no problem saying "Sorry, but adapt, or bugger off!"

But do you know what? I really do not care one way or the other whether someone wears something different to the established culture, eats something different to the established culture, or celebrates something different to the established culture.

And here's the crux: it doesn't matter whether the person deviating from the established culture was born here or whether they emigrated here from Abu Dhabi. Once they are living here, the same FREEDOMS apply. Including the freedom to take part in customs and traditions of a birth country or any other country.

The logical extension of that is that a woman of Pakistani origin should have the freedom to wear traditionally Pakistani clothing.

Do you see what I'm saying?

Assuming I'm not denied the freedom to wear a sari (should I feel the itch), then neither should an immigrant be denied that same freedom just because that particular garment may have originated in their country of birth.

IF there is a sense that immigrants are bringing their culture - their dress code, their recipes, and so on - from their birth country to their new country - then so what? If people like it, the country will embrace it (e.g. curry, Britain's unofficial national dish). If not, it will remain a minority phenomenon.

And that's entirely as it should be.

The full veil, I think it's safe to say, has other issues tied up with it - issues that have been raised in another thread like security, subjugation of women, and so on. And I suppose on a more fundamental level there is something understandable about the desire to see another person's face, at least in some circumstances. But those issues should be debated and evaluated quite separately to the issues of immigration and multiculturalism. They should, in other words, be debated on their own merit.

Unfortunately, most of the debate - at least in the right wing dominated press - is taking place at a very tribal level of "these funny-looking foreigners bringing their funny ways to our country."

Most of it is ill-disguised racist and xenophobic nonsense.
  #15  
Old 01-15-2011, 11:52 AM
Deckard
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Quote:
Originally Posted by human151
There are even so called "no go zones".
So where exactly are these "no go zones" for non-Muslims? Which streets? After all, the Bishop of Rochester never managed to back up that remark with anything resembling evidence. Three years on and still nothing. Certainly there are some areas that have undergone an extraordinary transformation and are now dominated by people of Pakistani and Bangladeshi origin, dress, culture and worship - but for him to speak about "no go zones" for non-Muslims was just inflammatory rhetoric - and it's sad to see people repeating it unquestioningly.
  #16  
Old 01-15-2011, 03:55 PM
human151
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard View Post
So where exactly are these "no go zones" for non-Muslims? Which streets? After all, the Bishop of Rochester never managed to back up that remark with anything resembling evidence. Three years on and still nothing. Certainly there are some areas that have undergone an extraordinary transformation and are now dominated by people of Pakistani and Bangladeshi origin, dress, culture and worship - but for him to speak about "no go zones" for non-Muslims was just inflammatory rhetoric - and it's sad to see people repeating it unquestioningly.

Its nice to be back having intelligent debate with you all. I've known many of you for a long time. Its like meeting old friends, nevermind the fact that we don't actually know each other ;-).

back to point.

http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2006...ones-of-france

"Mar. 16, 2008 update: John Cornwell, a leading historian and commentator on religion, is generally skeptical of Nazir-Ali's no-go areas but finds that if anyplace fits the profile, it's Bury Park in Luton:
Luton, like other enclaves, has experienced a spate of incidents that look all too like attempts to make Bury Park a no-go area to non-Muslims. Between November of last year and last month there were 18 attacks – all registered by the police – on five non-Muslim homes in the area. One couple, Mr and Mrs Harrop, white residents in their eighties, have had bricks hurled through their windows. The home of Mrs Palmer, a widow of West Indian origin, aged 70, has been attacked four times; on one occasion a metal beer keg crashed through her bay window while she was watching TV."


---------


meanwhile in france:


http://sig.ville.gouv.fr/Atlas/ZUS/



They go by the euphemistic term Zones Urbaines Sensibles, or Sensitive Urban Zones, with the even more antiseptic acronym ZUS, and there are 751 of them as of last count. They are convienently listed on one long webpage, complete with street demarcations and map delineations.
What are they? Those places in France that the French state does not control. They range from two zones in the medieval town of Carcassone to twelve in the heavily Muslim town of Marseilles, with hardly a town in France lacking in its ZUS. The ZUS came into existence in late 1996 and according to a 2004 estimate, nearly 5 million people live in them.


Le décret n°96-1156 du 26 décembre 1996 fixe la liste de 750 Zones urbaines sensibles (Zus). Le décret n°2000- 796 du 24 août 2000 ajoute le quartier «Nouveau Mons» de Mons-en-Baroeul à la liste des Zus et le décret n°2001-707 du 31 juillet 2001 modifie le périmètre de la Zus de Grigny (91).

Les décrets n° 96-1157 et n° 96-1158 du 26 décembre 1996 fixent la liste des 416 Zones de redynamisation urbaine (ZRU) parmi les 751 Zones urbaines sensibles (396 en France métropolitaine, 20 dans les départements d’outre-mer).


Translated:




Decree No. 96-1156 of 26 December 1996 fixes the list of 750 sensitive urban zones (ZUS). Decree No. 2000 - 796 of 24 August 2000 the district added "New Mons» Mons-en-Baroeul to the list of Zus and Decree No. 2001-707 of 31 July 2001 amends the scope of Zus Grigny (91).







Decrees No. 96-1157 and No. 96-1158 of 26 December 1996 set list of the 416 urban renewal areas (ZRU) among the 751 urban areas susceptible (396 in France, 20 in the overseas departments ).


---------------------------------


Does it really matter what people wear? No it doesent, people are free to wear what ever they please. But when the clothing is specific to a culture and or religion there is a problem. Its almost as if these people are say "look at me I'm a muslim". Most other people dont go around advertising and differentiating themselves based on religion.



The problem is the number of immigrants. if the number is too large then people feel they do not have to assimilate themselves into the established culture. If the number were to continue to grow then what was once an established culture will become the inferior culture. Imagine if in 100 years, at the current immigration level and the immigrant birthrate, the cultural values associated with the muslim religion were the prevalent values. What then? You want to tell me that this does not alarm you waht so ever?



Do you think that muslims would not try to impose their culture on others? Do you think that a nation dominated by the muslim cultural mindset would allow a group such a Underworld to exist and perform as they do?


I believe that what is happening is Netherlands is just an attempt to get a situation under control. There are millions of people who feel that they are losing their cultural identity, and maybe unlike some of you, they want to keep their cultural identity as it is. I believe that if many of these immigrants were to at least try to adopt some of the culture of their new home then this would not be an issue, but that is not happening. I also believe that for the large majority of the people who support ideas such as wilders, the issue is not about race, its about culture.



I hope I am making sense, I have never been the most eloquent writer...;-)



I hope I am making sense
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  #17  
Old 01-17-2011, 05:33 AM
Deckard
issue 37
 
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Quote:
Originally Posted by human151
"Mar. 16, 2008 update: John Cornwell, a leading historian and commentator on religion, is generally skeptical of Nazir-Ali's no-go areas but finds that if anyplace fits the profile, it's Bury Park in Luton:
Luton, like other enclaves, has experienced a spate of incidents that look all too like attempts to make Bury Park a no-go area to non-Muslims. Between November of last year and last month there were 18 attacks – all registered by the police – on five non-Muslim homes in the area. One couple, Mr and Mrs Harrop, white residents in their eighties, have had bricks hurled through their windows. The home of Mrs Palmer, a widow of West Indian origin, aged 70, has been attacked four times; on one occasion a metal beer keg crashed through her bay window while she was watching TV."
18 attacks. On 5 non-Muslim homes.

The population of Bury Park is, I believe, approximately 10,000.

This, of course, is assuming that these particular attacks were instances of "You're not a Muslim, you're not welcome here" or part of some joined-up campaign - none of which has been proven.

DCI Ian Middleton of Bedfordshire police believes the attacks on those 5 non-Muslim homes to be the work of small groups of white or Muslim extremists, stirring up racial and inter-religious hatred for its own sake.

And boy can I believe that.

Stirring up racial or religious hatred is such a shockingly easy thing to achieve, especially amongst those with a simplistic "them and us" mindset to begin with, that it's surprising there isn't much more of it.

Trust me, Bury Park is no no-go zone for non-Muslims.

I suppose to some people, the very appearance of a large Muslim Pakistani population will - in itself - make for a "no-go zone for non-Muslims". But in that case this was a deeply misleading and mischievous piece of rhetoric, implying a situation far more grave than is actually the case.

That's why the Bishop of Rochester never bothered to cite it as evidence.

And that's why I called it inflammatory.
  #18  
Old 01-17-2011, 05:56 AM
Deckard
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Quote:
Originally Posted by human151
Does it really matter what people wear? No it doesent, people are free to wear what ever they please. But when the clothing is specific to a culture and or religion there is a problem.
I disagree.

It just so happens I attended a birthday bash last night, organized by my Muslim in-laws. They booked a function room in a restaurant.

There were about 50 of us in total, including the local mayor.
Approx 40 were Muslim or of ethnic Pakistani origin.
Approx 10 were non-Muslim/white.

Many of the Muslims wore traditional Pakistani clothes. Not black gowns or head-to-toe burqas (none of them would wear anything like that) but nonetheless it was what you have called "clothing specific to a culture and/or religion". Bright colourful saris, gold jewellery - stuff like that.

The Muslims who organised this get-together didn't drink alcohol - but they were considerate enough to put on a bar for the alcohol-drinking non-Muslim minority.

We all had a good time.

These are the stories you don't read about in your right wing news sources, because they don't fit the narrative of division, they don't drive a wedge between people.

Yes there are problems with Islamic extremism, yes there are mosques that have disseminated extremist literature, yes there is probably a greater propensity of what I would deem backwards attitudes.

But by listening to groups like the English Defence League, or Stop the Islamification of Europe, or Wilders' Dutch Freedom Party, or the Tea Party extremists, you won't be made aware of the Muslim peace marches and groups, you won't be hearing the imams that speak out against extremism, you won't know about all the Muslims who accept non-Muslims and atheists and homosexuals, you won't hear about ANY of these things.

There does not have to be a problem with integration just because people of Pakistani origin (or the Muslim religion) choose to wear clothes specific to the culture or religion of their birth country or their parents' birth country. Many of us prove it each day.

It only becomes a problem when the mischief-makers from both sides of the debate make it a problem.
  #19  
Old 01-17-2011, 06:01 AM
Deckard
issue 37
 
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Quote:
Originally Posted by human151
Its almost as if these people are say "look at me I'm a muslim ... Most other people dont go around advertising and differentiating themselves based on religion.
But so what? People go around advertising and differentiating themselves in all sorts of ways all the time. Why should religion be excluded?

If someone wants to dress in such a way that says 'look at me I'm a muslim' (or 'look at me I'm a Christian'), then they should have the freedom to do that. I've already shown that it doesn't automatically point to a problem of integration.

It's perfectly possible to live happily alongside people very different to yourself without requiring assimilation of clothing.

Last edited by Deckard; 01-17-2011 at 06:06 AM.
  #20  
Old 01-17-2011, 06:10 AM
Deckard
issue 37
 
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Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Quote:
Originally Posted by human151
The problem is the number of immigrants. if the number is too large then people feel they do not have to assimilate themselves into the established culture. If the number were to continue to grow then what was once an established culture will become the inferior culture. Imagine if in 100 years, at the current immigration level and the immigrant birthrate, the cultural values associated with the muslim religion were the prevalent values. What then? You want to tell me that this does not alarm you waht so ever?
From a cultural point of view, no it doesn't bother me - provided the laws and values remain enlightened and liberal. My opponents are the opponents of liberalism, not Muslims. I think where I'm differing from you is that I don't believe there has to be a single established "culture" that forever belongs to Great Britain. It's dictated by the people. And if the people change, then the culture may quite naturally change. And so it should. Culture belongs to the people who experience it.

Now if people don't like the country becoming "more Muslim" or "more Pakistani" or "less British", then the thing to do is to take a stand against immigration. Don't take a stand against the people who are already perfectly legally here. Those people deserve the exact same freedoms to dress/speak/wear/worship what they like (including "clothing specific to a culture and/or religion") because the rest of us have those freedoms.

If a majority of the people in a country don't like the way immigrants are changing their country, then tackle the government on immigration. Don't judicially (or even just mentally) punish people for wearing certain clothes once they're here, when the rest of us can wear what we like.

Ban the full length burqa in certain situations by all means - but be consistent in other instances too, don't just make it about Muslims. In other words, if security is the issue, then also ban balaclavas and bike helmets. The debate about the burqa should be separate from the debate about immigration.
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