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  #11  
Old 05-23-2009, 05:22 PM
jOHN rODRIGUEZ
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Re: Jesse Ventura, American Badass
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangelet View Post
(... i am I getting smarter?)
Apparently, you haven't caught on to the new lingo during times of recession.

You're just less stupid.
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Last edited by jOHN rODRIGUEZ; 05-23-2009 at 06:17 PM.
  #12  
Old 05-23-2009, 08:41 PM
Future Proof
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Re: Jesse Ventura, American Badass
Quote:
Originally Posted by cacophony View Post
people conveniently like to forget the media/congress/public furor around clinton's pursuit of terrorist targets. he was accused of trying to create a diversion from whitewater and he had difficulty getting any support to pursue even very apparent targets. which isn't to say he did everything right, but it's just funny the way we all forget that a president doesn't operate in a vacuum.

no matter how hard bush tried.
Indeed. When military intelligence unearthed in 1998 that the top level Al-Qaeda members were having a meeting in Afghanistan, Clinton ordered an air strike. The backlash was fierce at the time:

Quote:
  • Rep. Jim Gibbons (R-NV): "'Look at the movie Wag the Dog. I think this has all the elements of that movie,' Rep. Jim Gibbons, R-Nev., said. 'Our reaction to the embassy bombings should be based on sound credible evidence, not a knee-jerk reaction to try to direct public attention away from his personal problems.'" [Ottawa Citizen, 8/21/98]
  • Sen. Arlen Specter (R-PA): "There's an obvious issue which will be raised internationally about the response here as to whether there is any diversionary motive involved. … I have deliberated consciously any references to Ms. Monica Lewinsky, but when you ask the question in very blunt terms, the president's current problems have to be on the minds of many people." [CNN, 8/20/98]
  • Then Sen. John Ashcroft (R-MO): "'We support the president out of a sense of duty whenever he deploys military forces, but we're not sure – were these forces sent at this time because he needed to divert our attention from his personal problems?' Ashcroft said during the taping of a TV program in Manchester, N.H." [St. Louis Post-Dispatch, 8/21/98]
  • Rep. Pete Sessions (R-TX): "I'm very supportive of the strike that has happened, but I will tell you that the timing is very questionable. This was the day that Monica Lewinsky has gone back to the grand jury, evidently enraged. Certainly that information will be overshadowed." [Dallas Morning News, 8/21/98]
  • Then Sen. Dan Coats (R-IN): "Coats (R-IN), a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said in a statement, 'While there is clearly much more we need to learn about this attack and why it was ordered today, given the president's personal difficulties this week, it is legitimate to question the timing of this action.'" [CNN, 8/20/98]
  • Rep. Dave Weldon (R-FL): "'The obvious question is, are the two connected?' asked Rep. Dave Weldon (R-Fla.), who chairs the National Security Committee's research subcommittee. 'That's the unthinkable, and I would hope it would never occur in America, but I can tell you, a lot of people are wondering about it today.'" [Los Angeles Times, 8/21/98]
  • Then Rep. Bob Barr (R-GA): "All I'm saying is if factors other than good intelligence, military necessity, being prepared for the consequences entered into it, then it is wrong, and it appears that one of those factors that may have entered into it is to take something that could have been done a week ago and do it today in an effort to divert some attention." [Fox News, 8/20/98]


Of course, you could always throw the last quote out since it came from Fox News, and everyone knows that 80% of the stuff they report is full of shit!

Last edited by Future Proof; 05-23-2009 at 08:47 PM.
  #13  
Old 05-23-2009, 09:27 PM
bryantm3
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Re: Jesse Ventura, American Badass
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangelet View Post
bas_I_am, if you don't have time to argue, then you really don't have the time to insult either. Awful that I have to do the job of dialog for you, and I sure as hell wouldn't be doing that if I weren't predisposed to your position.

Its no accident that hannity calls himself a "reagan conservative". They belong to a slice of conservatism that is largely considered "corporate" and not just by the left, but by other types of conservatives like the libertarians. The same problems british have with margaret thatcher, americans have with reagan. Both politicians shored up a populous movement based on nebulous ideas about private, individual enterprise being the fountainhead of prosperity when government leaves them alone. Which sounds awesome, but is vague enough to enable large corporate favoritism, rise of the military industrial complex and imperialism.

As you are watching the demise of the GOP, bear in mind what you are witnessing is the demise of reagan conservatism, hastened by the bush administration's poor performance.
I would not agree that Reagan Republican = Bush Republican. Although Reagan did loosen up restrictions on corporations, such as corporate income taxes, he also significantly lowered personal income tax brackets, and not just the top bracket; the entire code was simplified, bringing all the tax brackets down. There were also more tax loopholes closed during that time period.

Another great thing Reagan did was 'Star Wars'. He was a genius. He knew that there was no feasible way to create a satellite weapon that could fire lasers at Russia, but did Russia know that? He scared the living crap out of the Kremlin, who, in response, began to hasten their own side of the arms race to catch up with the United States, while the US just waited for their communist system to completely run out of money because their government could only last for so long, since their topheavy government depended on consistent revenue from the citizens, who had no reason to work because a doctor made the same amount of money as a janitor.
Reagan knew that the USSR would eventually collapse, but his actions sped up the conclusion of communism across Europe.
  #14  
Old 05-24-2009, 01:44 AM
Rog
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Re: Jesse Ventura, American Badass
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryantm3 View Post
Another great thing Reagan did was 'Star Wars'. He was a genius. .
hahahahahahahahaha! genius? you got to be joking! you must be getting him mixed up with his advisors mate............
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  #15  
Old 05-24-2009, 03:29 AM
Deckard
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Re: Jesse Ventura, American Badass
Sorry, this one's going to be about Reagan rather than Ventura.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bryantm3 View Post
Although Reagan did loosen up restrictions on corporations, such as corporate income taxes, he also significantly lowered personal income tax brackets........
Yes yes yes... and before sanctions began, Saddam Hussein led the most prosperous period of Iraq's history, significantly raising the living standard of the average Iraq citizen. The point not being that Reagan=Hussein (obviously), but aren't there some things that make such "benefits" seem - well, somewhat less significant and the pages of history somewhat more tainted than you might have us believe?

Remind me again, which adminstration helped supply Iraq with the components and expertise to produce those pesky WMD?

Which administration not only turned a blind eye to Hussein's use of chemical gas on his own people, but extended his credit limit?!

Which President was caught up in selling arms to Iran (officially listed at the time as a terrorist state, so in contravention not only of his camapign pledges but of the wider arms embargo)?

Who was it who later lied about this to the nation?

Then retracted that denial a week later?

Who was crying "just say no" on the one hand while illegally supplying arms to the Nicaraguan Contras - involving the support of large scale drug traffikers - on the other?

Are you ignorant of the above, or do these things genuinely seem less important to you than lowering personal income tax brackets?

You bring up the Cold War. That you honestly think this man was "a genius" for "his" deliberate plan to use the Star wars program to speed up the demise of Soviet communism - just beggars belief. That you think Star Wars was a good thing in itself is a subject for another thread, but irrespective of that, you honestly believe this former actor was the genius behind the plan - assuming this was the plan?

I realise a great many in America - perhaps the majority - will share your sentiments that he represents one of your "greatest presidents". The obvious response to that is to never underestimate the effectiveness of state actors, of perpetuating some great sweeping myth to get people to worship their leader - or at least airbrush out that which doesn't accord with his folksy teflon veneer. Reagan (or as I would view it, the Reagan administration) wasn't all bad, but one of your greatest? I just hope you meant to add "....of the last 5 serving presidents".
  #16  
Old 05-24-2009, 07:42 AM
bryantm3
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Re: Jesse Ventura, American Badass
Reagan had his faults, this is true. Every president has their faults— you can look back for the negative and always find it.
For example, LBJ spearheaded the war in Vietnam, but do we look back and blame him for Vietnam? No, most of us look at the Great Society program, and see NPR, medicare, and PBS as benefits from his presidency. FDR tried to take control of the judicial branch by appointing three more supreme court justices to tilt the court in his direction, a violation of Article III of the constitution. But most people look back at FDR as a savior during the Great Depression and as a powerful leader in WWII.
Abraham Lincoln circumvented Congress to start a war with the confederacy, and used the sedition act to lock up any newspaper reporters that disagreed with him, violating both Article I of the constitution and the first amendment. But do most people look back at these things? No, most people look back at Abraham Lincoln as a strong leader who reunited the country in its darkest hour, and ended slavery forever.
In the same way, we can look back at Reagan's faults, such as the Iran contra and disapprove of his administration, but this can be done for any president.

By the way, conveniently left out of your summary of the Iran contra scandal is the fact that Reagan was in on the deal to save hostages from terrorists. He was protecting the citizens of the US, the first and foremost job of the president.
  #17  
Old 05-24-2009, 08:19 AM
Strangelet
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Re: Jesse Ventura, American Badass
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryantm3 View Post
Reagan knew that the USSR would eventually collapse, but his actions sped up the conclusion of communism across Europe.
Reagan was senile for a significant portion of his administration. There are documented occasions where his diary said he had a pleasant dinner with so-and-so when the white house logs showed that no one had even visited that night.

His "masterful strategy" and his "single handedly" bringing down the communists is the biggest farce of an assertion in the history of politics. The soviet union was DOA before Reagan got elected based on 60 years of their own undoing.

Kid Rock could have been president and the Soviet Union would have still gone down. And maybe without causing the inflation and recession that followed in the early 90's from the deficit spending. Nor causing the seeds of hostility from the actions of our own "good-guy" empire across the globe, that wasn't really an empire because we got to use the domino theory excuse for our hostilities.

That being said, he did vastly simplify the tax code.
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  #18  
Old 05-24-2009, 08:26 AM
Strangelet
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Re: Jesse Ventura, American Badass
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryantm3 View Post
In the same way, we can look back at Reagan's faults, such as the Iran contra and disapprove of his administration, but this can be done for any president.
Some more than others, mate. The rule of law is the rule of law, regardless of their winning smile or quaffed hair do. And incidentally, I personally think Abe Lincoln and LBJ to be the more evil of our presidents.
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  #19  
Old 05-24-2009, 11:18 AM
jOHN rODRIGUEZ
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Re: Jesse Ventura, American Badass
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangelet View Post
Some more than others, mate. The rule of law is the rule of law, regardless of their winning smile or quaffed hair do. And incidentally, I personally think Abe Lincoln and LBJ to be the more evil of our presidents.
O.K., you're back to the normal stupid again.
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  #20  
Old 05-24-2009, 11:40 AM
bryantm3
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Re: Jesse Ventura, American Badass
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangelet View Post
Some more than others, mate. The rule of law is the rule of law, regardless of their winning smile or quaffed hair do. And incidentally, I personally think Abe Lincoln and LBJ to be the more evil of our presidents.
Personally, I think Abe Lincoln was an extremely corrupt tyrant and I don't like him at all. But my point was that it all depends on what aspects you wish to study.
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