fuck religion

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by //\/\/

SPOILER ALERT!!!!!

adrian; in the next episode, jesus comes back to life!


organised religion is always going to cause inherant problems as soon as you have differences - it's human nature. religous belief is based on the fear that 'this is it, and this is all there is'. religion denies that, and says 'psssst. do x, y and z and you get eternal life. imagine that, eh?' however, when a bunch of people start to get told that doing a,b and c are the way to do it, fear sets in. 'i've been doing x,y and z and those a,b and c folk have to change because i'm too scared to contemplate them being right all along. they can't be - i've been told all my life. they're wrong. aren't they. best shut them up. HEY! SHUT UP YOU LOT! YOUR'E WRONG? WHAT'S THAT? NO, I WON'T SHUT UP!...' etc...

i see buddhism more as a nice way to go about your life, than a religion; but have issues with the reincarnation aspect. i think that stems from the same old fear...

you are absolutely right. there are way too many people who think religion is some kind of cheat code to get into heaven and that's not what it's about at all. it's not about being good so G-d won't kick you out and send you to HELL!!!!!... it's about becoming closer to G-d of your own volition and using that advice in the holy books and through prayer to help other people and make the world a better place.

[Deckard]

Five quite different hypotheses on the future of religion (from Dan Dennett's Breaking The Spell). He makes the point that while other possibilities are describable, only one of these hypotheses (at most) will turn out to be true; the rest are not just wrong but wildly wrong.

1. The Enlightenment is long gone; the creeping "secularization" of modern societies that has been anticipated for two centuries is evaporating before our eyes. The tide is turning and religion is becoming more important than ever. In this scenario, religion soon resumes something like the dominant social and moral role it had before the rise of modern science in the seventeenth century. As people recover from their infatuation with technology and material comforts, spiritual identity becomes a person's most valued attribute, and populations come to be ever more sharply divided among Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, and a few other major multinational religious organizations. Eventually—it might take another millennium, or it might be hastened by catastrophe—one major faith sweeps the planet.

2. Religion is in its death throes; today's outbursts of fervor and fanaticism are but a brief and awkward transition to a truly modern society in which religion plays at most a ceremonial role. In this scenario, although there may be some local and temporary revivals and even some violent catastrophes, the major religions of the world soon go just as extinct as the hundreds of minor religions that are vanishing faster than anthropologists can record them. Within the lifetimes of our grandchildren, Vatican City becomes the European Museum of Roman Catholicism, and Mecca is turned into Disney's Magic Kingdom of Allah.

3. Religions transform themselves into institutions unlike anything seen before on the planet: basically creedless associations selling self-help and enabling moral teamwork, using ceremony and tradition to cement relationships and build "long-term fan loyalty." In this scenario, being a member of a religion becomes more and more like being a Boston Red Sox fan, or a Dallas Cowboys fan. Different colors, different songs and cheers, different symbols, and vigorous competition— would you want your daughter to marry a Yankees fan?—but aside from a rabid few, everybody appreciates the importance of peaceful coexistence in a Global League of Religions. Religious art and music flourish, and friendly rivalry leads to a degree of specialization, with one religion priding itself on its environmental stewardship, providing clean water for the world's billions, while another becomes duly famous for its concerted defense of social justice and economic equality.

4. Religion diminishes in prestige and visibility, rather like smoking; it is tolerated, since there are those who say they can't live without it, but it is discouraged, and teaching religion to impressionable young children is frowned upon in most societies and actually outlawed in others. In this scenario, politicians who still practice religion can be elected if they prove themselves worthy in other regards, but few would advertise their religious affiliation—or affliction, as the politically incorrect insist on calling it. It is considered as rude to draw attention to the religion of somebody as it is to comment in public about his sexuality or whether she has been divorced.

5. Judgment Day arrives. The blessed ascend bodily into heaven, and the rest are left behind to suffer the agonies of the damned, as the Anti-christ is vanquished. As the Bible prophecies foretold, the rebirth of the nation of Israel in 1948 and the ongoing conflict over Palestine are clear signs of the End Times, when the Second Coming of Christ sweeps all the other hypotheses into oblivion.

[//\/\/]

Originally Posted by bill hicks

...the pope just bouncing around in that all-terrain popemobile, with the three feet of bulletproof plexiglass around him. boy, there's faith in action.

(i'm sure i remember adding this to a dirtylist thread way back, too!)

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Deckard

Five quite different hypotheses on the future of religion (from Dan Dennett's Breaking The Spell). He makes the point that while other possibilities are describable, only one of these hypotheses (at most) will turn out to be true; the rest are not just wrong but wildly wrong.

1. The Enlightenment is long gone; the creeping "secularization" of modern societies that has been anticipated for two centuries is evaporating before our eyes. The tide is turning and religion is becoming more important than ever. In this scenario, religion soon resumes something like the dominant social and moral role it had before the rise of modern science in the seventeenth century. As people recover from their infatuation with technology and material comforts, spiritual identity becomes a person's most valued attribute, and populations come to be ever more sharply divided among Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, and a few other major multinational religious organizations. Eventually—it might take another millennium, or it might be hastened by catastrophe—one major faith sweeps the planet.

2. Religion is in its death throes; today's outbursts of fervor and fanaticism are but a brief and awkward transition to a truly modern society in which religion plays at most a ceremonial role. In this scenario, although there may be some local and temporary revivals and even some violent catastrophes, the major religions of the world soon go just as extinct as the hundreds of minor religions that are vanishing faster than anthropologists can record them. Within the lifetimes of our grandchildren, Vatican City becomes the European Museum of Roman Catholicism, and Mecca is turned into Disney's Magic Kingdom of Allah.

3. Religions transform themselves into institutions unlike anything seen before on the planet: basically creedless associations selling self-help and enabling moral teamwork, using ceremony and tradition to cement relationships and build "long-term fan loyalty." In this scenario, being a member of a religion becomes more and more like being a Boston Red Sox fan, or a Dallas Cowboys fan. Different colors, different songs and cheers, different symbols, and vigorous competition— would you want your daughter to marry a Yankees fan?—but aside from a rabid few, everybody appreciates the importance of peaceful coexistence in a Global League of Religions. Religious art and music flourish, and friendly rivalry leads to a degree of specialization, with one religion priding itself on its environmental stewardship, providing clean water for the world's billions, while another becomes duly famous for its concerted defense of social justice and economic equality.

4. Religion diminishes in prestige and visibility, rather like smoking; it is tolerated, since there are those who say they can't live without it, but it is discouraged, and teaching religion to impressionable young children is frowned upon in most societies and actually outlawed in others. In this scenario, politicians who still practice religion can be elected if they prove themselves worthy in other regards, but few would advertise their religious affiliation—or affliction, as the politically incorrect insist on calling it. It is considered as rude to draw attention to the religion of somebody as it is to comment in public about his sexuality or whether she has been divorced.

5. Judgment Day arrives. The blessed ascend bodily into heaven, and the rest are left behind to suffer the agonies of the damned, as the Anti-christ is vanquished. As the Bible prophecies foretold, the rebirth of the nation of Israel in 1948 and the ongoing conflict over Palestine are clear signs of the End Times, when the Second Coming of Christ sweeps all the other hypotheses into oblivion.

My money's on number 2.

[Rog]

there is no god or heaven or life ever after you bloody fools

you're born, you live, you die and thats all.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Mooooooooom, . . . . Daddy's drunk again.

[froopy seal]

Originally Posted by Rog

fuck religion

There's a 'fuck religion'?

This might make me shift from agnostic to fanatic...

[Future Proof]

I'm pretty comfortable asserting that if people didn't have religion as reason to slaughter that they'd find something else. People are the problem, as evidenced by the fact that there are many that are exposed to religion and don't have a violent reaction with it. The people that wish to be led around by promises on paper from Jesus, Allah, Buddha and would kill in the name of them are psychotic. Or at least it seems that way, especially to consider that if I was asked to kill someone in the name of religion, strong believer or not, I'd laugh and flip the bird. Because after all, a sane person doesn't need religion or law to understand that killing is wrong. I believe that the sane person, though potentially ignorant of the law, knows from their gut what evil and wrong is and is not.

So, I say unto you in return, don't fuck religion. Fuck people. Fuck people and their ignorant, stupid dysfunctions, neuroses and beliefs. This earth is not big enough for the two of us, me and the rest of them, that is... but I will suffer though because regardless of how angry people make me, killing is still wrong... and I'm sane.

[froopy seal]

Originally Posted by Future Proof

I'm pretty comfortable asserting that if people didn't have religion as reason to slaughter that they'd find something else. People are the problem, as evidenced by the fact that there are many that are exposed to religion and don't have a violent reaction with it. The people that wish to be led around by promises on paper from Jesus, Allah, Buddha and would kill in the name of them are psychotic. Or at least it seems that way, especially to consider that if I was asked to kill someone in the name of religion, strong believer or not, I'd laugh and flip the bird. Because after all, a sane person doesn't need religion or law to understand that killing is wrong. I believe that the sane person, though potentially ignorant of the law, knows from their gut what evil and wrong is and is not.

Strong believer in natural law, eh? That said, I tend to agree with your gut feeling, to the degree that I fear evolving into a general misanthrope. Then again, like my Intercultural Communication lecturer said, prejudices help orienting oneself in strange cultures...

Originally Posted by Future Proof

Fuck people.

That sounds even better than Rog's first assessment.

Originally Posted by Future Proof

Fuck people and their ignorant, stupid dysfunctions, neuroses and beliefs. This earth is not big enough for the two of us, me and the rest of them, that is... but I will suffer though because regardless of how angry people make me, killing is still wrong... and I'm sane.

Good advice, I'll keep it in mind.

[Deckard]

I think what I would say is: fuck dogma. Religious, political, scientific, whatever. And fuck irrationalism.

If I'm permitted one dogma of my own without contradicting myself, it is that there have to be minds open and flexible enough to reason. Without those minds, there's simply no way to begin resolving our differences.

Dogmatic thinking says no, I'm not shifting, it's wrong, it is what it is, it's written in stone, questioning it is wrong/blasphemous/unscientific/disrespectful/un-American/etc.

But we're apes, and we'll probably be battling our animalistic dogmatic and dichotomous natures right until the end.

(or at least until we're supplanted by our silicon successors )