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  #1  
Old 07-13-2010, 11:04 AM
Deckard
issue 37
 
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French MPs vote to ban Islamic full veil in public
One of those hot issues that seems to wind everyone up.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/10611398.stm

I hate the full veil (I look dreadful in it) but I'm not sure I support it being banned. If it's going to be, then I think it should be banned along with other clothing that, depending on the ultimate reason, fall under the same criteria.

For instance, if the issue is one of security and of the need to see people's faces in public buildings (a not unreasonable one, I think), then ban anything that covers the face in those instances - low-hanging hoodies, balaclavas, Jedi masks, whatever. Or better still, just have the rule that 'faces should not be covered in public buildings'.

If it's about emphasizing the secular nature of the state, then I'm inclined to think the government should royally feck off! The point being, secularism and enforced irreligiosity are not the same thing. Yes I roll my eyes when I see women wandering around Cardiff in their niqabs and hijabs, and silently despair at how silly people are still clinging to all that nonsense in the 21st century - but secularism should surely be about people being free to express, within reasonable limits, their religious views in any way they choose; not about removing the insignia of religion (or religion-based culture) and attempting to make everyone - at least on the surface - non-religious.

Which leaves us with the big one, women's rights, and the notion of the niqab and burka as the most visible symbol of a certain view of women pervasive in much of Islamic culture. And the question is, what do you do when many of the women themselves insist that they are not oppressed and that it's their right to cover their head/face? I'm truly not sure which is worse: the government stepping in and telling women what (not) to wear, or letting it continue.

Maybe it shouldn't be banned but just needs to be challenged more vigorously.

But how, and by whom?

Thoughts?
  #2  
Old 07-13-2010, 11:08 AM
bryantm3
It's Written In The Book!
 
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Re: French MPs vote to ban Islamic full veil in public
this all boils down to the terrible racism against muslims and others of middle eastern descent in france. like it or not, the french are doing to muslims what the south did to blacks in the 50s.
  #3  
Old 07-13-2010, 12:19 PM
Deckard
issue 37
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Re: French MPs vote to ban Islamic full veil in public
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryantm3 View Post
this all boils down to the terrible racism against muslims and others of middle eastern descent in france. like it or not, the french are doing to muslims what the south did to blacks in the 50s.
While I wouldn't personally compare it with "racism" against blacks, I do understand what you're saying and agree with you in this respect: that the motivation behind a lot of the public opposition isn't quite as rational as it's made out to be.

I know in this country (the UK) when I hear this topic being discussed, it doesn't take long to realise that women's rights and secularism aren't the overriding concerns of the anti-veilers (unless the far right parties and the great conservative British public have suddenly decided that it's time to ditch religion and fight the feminist cause )

No question about it, a lot of public opposition seems to boil down to little more than "these foreign looking people with their foreign ways, coming into our country... " etc etc). Really, I get the impression that narrow-mindedness and bigotry have a large but silent part in this 'debate'.

But while legitimate reasons are being bandied around, it's still worth examining whether there really is a real case to be made for a ban. As I say, I'm not convinced.
  #4  
Old 07-13-2010, 03:43 PM
bryantm3
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Re: French MPs vote to ban Islamic full veil in public
there are no legitimate reasons... it's totally barbaric to ban certain types of clothing, religious or not. i know a lot of the right over here in the states are whining about socialism, but the europeans are moving way too close to authoritarianism when the government has the power to do this type of thing. this would never happen in the united states, the laws and bureaucracy aren't even set up for this type of psychotic control over people's personal lives.
  #5  
Old 07-13-2010, 06:24 PM
bas_I_am
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Re: French MPs vote to ban Islamic full veil in public
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryantm3 View Post
this would never happen in the united states, the laws and bureaucracy aren't even set up for this type of psychotic control over people's personal lives.
alphretta, ga???

I suggest you check your local laws. . .

I bet that, except on halloween, mardi gras, and new years eve, wearing a mask in public is unlawful.

At least it is here, in fairfax county virginia.

I hazard a guess, the same is true in most metropolitan areas of the US.
  #6  
Old 07-13-2010, 06:27 PM
bas_I_am
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Re: French MPs vote to ban Islamic full veil in public
http://www.anapsid.org/cnd/mcs/maskcodes.html
  #7  
Old 07-13-2010, 06:41 PM
bas_I_am
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Re: French MPs vote to ban Islamic full veil in public
Quote:
Originally Posted by bas_I_am View Post
After thinking about it. . . I am willing to bet US$100 that wearing a mask in public is illegal in Georgia.

Most likely a a measure to curb the actions of the KKK.
  #8  
Old 07-13-2010, 09:47 PM
bryantm3
It's Written In The Book!
 
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Re: French MPs vote to ban Islamic full veil in public
have you ever heard of dragoncon? wearing a masque in public is not illegal...
  #9  
Old 07-13-2010, 11:33 PM
Strangelet
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Re: French MPs vote to ban Islamic full veil in public
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard View Post

Maybe it shouldn't be banned but just needs to be challenged more vigorously.

But how, and by whom?

Thoughts?
My thoughts the other day were for fashion designers to start encorporating them into their fall/winter lines. PR wizards then start crafting the meme that burkhas and hijaabs are extremely sexual in nature, packed with coquettish mischief and hidden lusts. Men start whistling Tex Avery style at women wearing their black bed sheets down champs a lysee. problem solved.
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  #10  
Old 07-14-2010, 12:08 AM
bas_I_am
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Re: French MPs vote to ban Islamic full veil in public
Quote:
Originally Posted by bryantm3 View Post
have you ever heard of dragoncon? wearing a masque in public is not illegal...
If you read the laws, masquerade parties and festivals are typically exempt.

Want to bet US$100 that Georgia has laws against wearing a mask in general public???

come on bet. . .

Its only gambling if you lose!
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