somebody help me (torrent dispute)

[bryantm3]

this is a long story. i've been trying to release a genesis torrent and there is this guy in the genesis community who won't stop harassing me— i know it doesn't sound like much but i need advice on what to do next. i'm thinking of leaving the community entirely but this guy has been such a jerk, i just want people to know what he's done. i'm thinking about making the following post on the forums over there... if you care to have a read through please do.

Tom Morgenstern of TM Productions has been repeatedly harassing me regarding the release of my compilation. After over a week of this, I cannot take any more. Tom has not only attempted to exercise copyright control over bootlegs that he does not own, he has gone outside the Genesis community to get my torrent banned from another site by lying and telling the administrator there that Genesis does not allow trading of bootlegs. I am posting the entire conversation so everyone can draw their own conclusions. Because of the hold that TM has over the community, this post will most likely be deleted within an hour or two. But I thought everyone deserved to know the truth.

I wrote:

Hey all, I'm doing a compilation of some of the greatest recordings between 1976 and 1980 and am planning on sharing it on the Genesis-Movement torrent website. I am using mostly material that some very talented and kind people have remastered and fixed over the years, and I would like to have their permission to use their material. All of the material I am using will be listed in the release notes in the torrent as it is listed on the Movement website, and all the material I am using will be as it was originally released, lossless, with no changes except fade ins and fade outs and amplification— with two exceptions below.

If anyone is here whose permission I need, please reply to this thread, or if anyone knows how I can get in contact with these people, it would be much appreciated.

Once again, thank you for all your work on these remastering projects and so kindly making them free to all of us fans!

I will be releasing the project on October 15, so if I don't hear anything by then I'll assume it's okay. Here are the people I need permissions from and the specific tracks:

[...]

TM PRODUCTIONS:

• Your Own Special Way — Rainbow, January 3 1977
• The Cinema Show— Hammersmith Odeon Pre-FM 1976
• White Mountain — Hammersmith Odeon Pre-FM 1976
• In That Quiet Earth/Afterglow — Rainbow January 2 Pre-FM 1977
• The Story Of Albert — Lyceum Pre-FM 1980
• Behind The Lines/Duchess/Guide Vocal— Montreal 1980
• Turn It On Again — Lyceum Pre-FM 1980
• Duke's Travels / Duke's End — Lyceum Pre-FM 1980
• Say It's Alright Joe — Lyceum Pre-FM 1980
• Squonk — Sheffield 1980
• All In A Mouse's Night — Rainbow January 2 Pre-FM 1977
• Ripples — Lyceum Pre-FM 1980
• Los Endos — Hammersmith Odeon Pre-FM 1976

COASTER FACTORY:

• Back In N.Y.C. — Aylesbury 1980

LOSTBROOK:

• I Know What I Like — Madison Square Garden 1978, Lostbrook 52.

SAB:

• Dance On A Volcano — SAB 04 1976
  Special Note:
  I changed the speed and pitch but did not mess with equalisation, and I will denote so in the release notes. Do you want me to credit you as a starting point or not credit you at all since the final product is different?

Tom wrote:

Sorry Daniel, but I don't quite like to see my work compiled to something else and I can't see the point in it. I'm releasing my stuff for free but under the condition to keep everything intact, complete and unaltered. It's fine that you will list your sources in the notes but I don't want to see my project name mentioned there. So do whatever you want but don't share it.
Apart from that, Simon does not allow compilations without consulting him first (see FAQ on site).

I wrote:

hey tom,

i sent you a PM.

thanks

daniel

I wrote:

Tom,

I’m hoping you get this soon— you don't seem to frequent these forums very much anymore.

I appreciate you wanting to protect your work— it's pretty much acknowledged that you're the best and most talented person out there who does this sort of thing— the Genesis community has really been blessed to have you pretty much leading the way on remastering these bootlegs, and I assure you that the utmost respect has been given to your work; in the compilation I made I have not changed your work in any way, have kept it all digital and lossless throughout the entire process, and have kept a buffer around every track of the original concert's audience and Phil’s in-between song dialogue. With your work, there isn't even any purpose in changing your material as the way you have worked on it, it has turned out perfect, and in some cases, your source is the only source out there.

This is why, unfortunately, there aren't any alternatives for some of the concerts I used your work from, such as the Hammersmith Odeon Pre-FM recording from 1976. If I wished to use that concert's Pre-FM recording, there is no unmastered direct copy out there, only your remaster. This seems to be the case for many of the shows out there which is why I used work from so many remastering projects— for example, Bern 1976 is unavailable besides the great work done by the Digital Brothers.

I understand your aversion to compilation projects, as many of them are rushed and simply do not sound as good as the sources they are originally from. However, this has been done many times before using your own material, such as Kasper's "Collins Era Live Archive" and "The Musical Box" compilation a few years back. The compilation I am putting together I have worked on for a very long time and I do believe you will be pleased with the final product— The best sources and performances were used with delicate care to keep the sources exactly as they were intended to be heard, and when there were no better sources, I did the job myself— for example, the remaster of the "Wot Gorilla" medley floating out there is my work. On this compilation is an entirely new version of that which is superior to any out there so far.

To preserve the original recordings as much as possible, the compilation was expanded to three discs to keep between-song chatter by the band intact. In addition, the compilation's ordering is not haphazard and seemingly unordered like many of the previous efforts— the compilation is ordered in the exact order that Genesis performed the songs during their concerts— So even though it uses a lot of sources and it is very long, it still has the feel of a "complete show" even though it is a compilation.

Finally, the artwork that I have done for this compilation is, in my opinion, top notch. Although it may not reflect the typical style used on bootlegs, I think as a record collector you may appreciate the quality of the work.

To prove to you that this is truly a worthy effort, I have added the artwork to Photobucket for you to take a look at— while on Photobucket the art is compressed, in the final product it will be uncompressed TIFF images to avoid noise created by JPEG compression. I have also added tracks 6-10 of Disc One of the compilation for you to take a listen to.

Here is the artwork on Photobucket:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y39/bryantm3/FRONT.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y39...tm3/INSIDE.jpg

And here are a couple of tracks from the compilation:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/x7d9b5

Thanks,

Daniel

Tom wrote:

Daniel,

True I have never been here that often because this forum collected mainly the people from the official forum's general section - and these people usually didn't care much about bootlegs and were the typical yeasayers when it came to sloppy releases like the OMG mono DVD.

Indeed you artwork is nice and your ambitions are serious but I don't like these compilations at all. I didn't like Kasper's either. I simply don't see the point in it. Whenever it comes to using my remasters I cannot help thinking that they used my name and logo just for namedropping purposes. And this is the least I want.

Since I can not stop you anyway, I can offer a solution: Use whatever songs you want but just don't mention where you've taken them from. Not my name, no TM Productions anywhere, neither on the artwork nor on the description. If you get asked just tell them you've been asked not to mention it, not even in a PM. OK?

Best, tom

I wrote:

Thanks Tom, I really appreciate that. I will delete your name from the credits and won't mention it to anyone. I hope you have a Happy Halloween!

Thanks,
Daniel

During this time period, I removed all mention of Tom's name from the torrent and the artwork. I uploaded the torrent to the Movement website, and a few hours later, anyone following the link would be presented with this:

'Four Great Tours — Four Great Hours 1976-1980' was deleted by ------

Reason: Creator of most of these remasters objects against this torrent (and did already so before the torrent started). Uploader didn't care about that. We do.

I assumed this was a mistake since Tom had given me permission.



post continues below.

[bryantm3]

Tom wrote:

This was probably a misunderstanding. I never gave any permission, I've just meant, since I can't stop you - don't mention my name anywhere. You can't release a compilation torrent without listing your sources at the movement anyway, but you can still try it on other trackers. I couldn't do anything against it but if I could, I would. Fortunately I can stop it on the Movement, so I did.

Read my first reply on the thread - I said this compilation is pointless and I only release my work under the condition that it keeps unaltered and complete. To compile it to something new means changing it.
I'll stop releasing further remasters if this condition will not be respected. Hope you understand.

tom

I wrote:

I'm afraid I don't, Tom. The message you sent me said that if I did not include your name on the compilation I could release it. The compilation artwork and the notes do not include your name. I thought we had discussed this and you had given me the go-ahead to release it as long as your name was not on it.

Daniel

Tom wrote:

Well I have read it again, and you are probably right, it could have been misleading. I'm sorry I was in a hurry yesterday so I probably was a bit vague.

On the other hand, your attitude of posting your request to a forum of which you knew that I'm not frequently visiting by telling "I will be releasing the project on October 15, so if I don't hear anything by then I'll assume it's okay" was somewhat pushy to say the least. I have read it not before October 14 so I haven't had much time to object anyway.

However, I never said you can release it to the Movement. This is something completely different. The people over there are the same as the people here. And since you have already revealed everything about your project here, it would make no big difference if you remove my name from the artwork. The folks would know it anyway.
I asked not to mention my name or "TM Productions" anywhere, but anywhere includes this or other forums as well.

tom

I wrote:

Tom, please read this message. Do you have a personal vendetta against me? There are many other torrents on the site that have your material on them that even credit you. Unlike them, however, I put out a public notice a week ahead of time that I was using sources as an act of generosity. I'm trying to do right by everyone. I wasn't even going to release this compilation, but a bunch of people on the forum are begging me to upload it, torrent it, send it in the mail, etc., and I thought I would do something nice for everyone and put it out there.

Your name is not on it, you aren't credited anywhere and the Genesis Movement site doesn't require sources, only dates. There are many torrents on there that follow this basic protocol that haven't been deleted or banned. There is no possible way that, even if the compilation is bad, which it isn't, that it would come back to you.

I waited a whole week to put this out because I wanted to give everyone ample time to tell me if they wanted to be credited or not. Two days ago I came down with a fever and have been sick at home doing nothing but waiting to upload this thing. You sent me a message about six hours before I was going to upload it, but I obliged you and followed your wishes and modified some extremely complicated artwork to obscure your name and still keep the integrity of the artwork intact. Today you gave me a go-ahead and I uploaded the torrent.

Hours later, the torrent was pulled and anyone clicking on the link would see an accusation saying that I had not followed the wishes of the remastering groups, even though I did everything within my scope to make sure everyone was okay a week in advance of torrenting it. You pulled the rug out from under me and made me look like an ass, and gave no indication that you would do so beforehand.

I've worked on this for a couple of months, and it's something I'm really proud of. Tom, you've got a lot to be proud of, you're a talented producer and technician and you have the ability to turn these recordings into something beautiful. I love Genesis' music as much as you do, but I am not blessed with these same abilities, but what I can do is showcase some of these remastering projects in a way that is tasteful and pleasing. I don't have a lot to be proud of, Tom. It's 7 AM here and this has me terribly upset and this and whatever I'm sick with has really gotten me down, and I've got nothing left to lose. I'm just sick and tired and I need to go to bed. Do what you will.

Daniel

Tom wrote:

Nothing personal at all, Daniel. I've mentioned before that I didn't like the other compilations either. But the last one that appeared was some time ago and when I spotted it it was too late.

It is not my fault that I'm not so often here. This forum is widely uninteresting to me. You could have sent a PN in the first place but it would likely have made no difference apart from the fact that I would have got a notification email then.

Just today I've found the thread in another section, where the tracklisting was widely discussed. The second or third reply someone said, use TM use TM use TM. And you did. Everyone knows that this is my stuff on your discs and any attempt to disguise it is in vain. This is the reason why I don't want to see it released in the very first place.

I'm sorry for upsetting you but that's the way it is.

I wrote:

Tom, I feel like you have a personal vendetta against me. You gave me approval for the compilation and then actively went and contacted Willem and TM and told them to remove the torrent.

Once again, there are other compilations STILL on the tracker that have your material on them, and it's well known that they are on there, such as the Collins Live Archive. Why didn't you contact them to have them taken off? You are basically telling me, that if I hadn't asked your permission and done this covertly, then it would have been OK. But now that I have asked your permission, you're giving me hell and really dealing me dirt. Tom, do you have a best friend, a wife, a confidante? You are really acting unreasonably— Maybe it's because you're having a bad week. If your week has been as bad as mine has been I understand. But maybe you should show our correspondence to someone else and get a third party opinion, because sometimes what feels right can be skewed depending on life circumstances and such.

I offer you a reasonable solution, Tom. Here is the plan:

First, I will delete all threads and posts mentioning you including the tracklisting thread and all the permission threads.
Second, I will modify the artwork to not only NOT mention you, I will modify it to give the credit to other remastering projects with similar releases, such as the January 2 performance credited to SAB instead of you.
Third, I will wait a period of three days to re-upload the torrent so that there is no way it can be traced back to you.



This is me going out of my way to appease you, Tom. But all this is contingent on you giving Simon and Willem the OK to let me upload it. I'm not asking you to sponsor this release, I'm not asking you to go out of your way to do anything. I'm asking for the same permissions countless others have gotten that didn't even ask for them. I did. I had common courtesy, and you have really dealt me a bad hand on this whole affair. Please consider the solution I listed above and get back to me.

Thanks,

Daniel

Tom wrote:

Daniel,

again, nothing personal. I said it in the first place: I just don't like these compilations - I think they are pointless. If you haven't asked for permission your torrent would have been deleted too. I'm sorry If I can't be that elaborate to explain my reasons in detail but I haven't got much time for a correspondence like this.

I said I can not stop you using my stuff and I asked you to remove any links to me or TM Productions. This did not include any permission to upload the torrent to the Movement. I should have said it more definite, so I apologize.

First, the internet won't forget and the people won't forget. So deleting the threads is pointless.
Second, modifying the artwork in a way that it lists WRONG sources actively misleads people, so this is nothing you should consider seriously.

I have another idea - why not simply using other, unremastered sources? - From Lyceum we have lots of fine Radio Shows provided by the GRaSP group, Montreal and Rainbow 3 are covered by GASP and from Chicago, Sheffield, Pittsburgh Hammersmith and Rainbow 2 I can provide the more or less untreated transfer files so you can do what you want without asking anyone. That would be an effort which I would really appreciate.

Consider this,
tom

[bryantm3]

I wrote:

Tom, I have been working on this for two months. The project is complete. If you honestly think that I will show the same courtesy I have shown you so far when you are preventing me from sharing it, you must be a kook.

Since you are not showing me any leniency at all when you have shown it to others before, I won't give you any leniency to my crediting standards, either, and I'm putting your name back on the compilation and I am giving you full credit for what is already on there. In fact, I think a big sticker on the front of the artwork that says TM Productions would be a nice touch as well.

Bottom line, Tom, I have been extremely reasonable with you and have shown you a degree of courtesy and kindness that would cause others to vomit.

Genesis has been very kind to us to allow us to trade and remaster these technically illegal bootlegs, and have gone out of their way to tell Atlantic and EMI to back off pursuing trading of live bootlegs. For you to take a technically illegal recording that is not even yours, to modify it, and then to claim that you have exclusive rights of it is not only absurd, it is borderline psychotic.

These recordings, like it or not, belong to the Genesis community because the band has given us that privilege. They are free to distribute and do whatever we wish with them, except to make a profit off of them. The fact that you have restricted access to these recordings is an abuse of that privilege, especially concerning the Hammersmith Odeon 1976 recording— there still remains no copy of that out there because you have hidden it away while at the same time systematically controlling the way that it is distributed.

The standard in the Genesis community is that common courtesy is given by crediting those who remaster the bootlegs, and removing credit when the project does not meet their personal standards. Treating a bootleg like a copyrighted recording and preventing the distribution of it is out of bounds— the only other person I have seen do this before is Tommygun, are you familiar with him?

The recording is not yours to own, Tom. It's all of ours. My offer still stands as in the previous message. If I don't hear anything back, your name is going on it and I will distribute it elsewhere.

"I'm sorry for upsetting you but that's the way it is,"

Daniel

Tom wrote:

How can someone work three months on a compliation? This is something that I don't really understand. All you did is copy & paste! Call me whatever you want but I can't help thinking that you have never considered any objection against your "project", hence your "ask for permission" was just a spoof.

Well that's what you always wanted to do with your compilation: adorn yourself with borrowed plumes, right? Leniency? Come on! The only thing that I requested was respect and this PN shows you haven't got any.

Yeah, very reasonable but you have probably never accepted any "no" in your life, haven't you? What are you usually doing? Are you throwing yourself on the ground or just stomp your feet until Mommy gives what you want?

Well, next time I modify a Genesis concert, I better keep it to myself instead of releasing in to the public domain. Disrespectful statements like yours are very helpful in keeping me away from doing further remasters.

You would never have gotten any TM Productions remaster work if I had never agreed to releasing it. In fact, I have some more in the can but I'm seriously thinking about keeping it locked forever. In fact, I have never claimed anything. You asked and I said I don't want it. If that is wrong to you why have you asked in the first place?

You should think before you write. All sources I've mentioned are easily available and nothing is hidden if you seriously ask for it. We have only got the Hammersmith recording because AV was so kind to give it to me. It was his demand that the untreated copy was never released and even though I usually respect his wishes I've just offered this recording to you on a silver platter. You've turned it down, fine. Whatelse do you want?

Tommygun (nice try to insult me by the way) rips the people off by taking money for his shit he has got for free. I have never taken any money, all I want is respect. To get respect IS indeed standard in the Genesis community, you have showed not much of it, I'm afraid. Instead you are trying to insult me.

So all I did is yours, right? And if I don't agree to your proposal, you are threatening me, right? Well life can be very easy as it seems.

Bottom line, Daniel. I think I was right in declining your very kind offer of re-releasing my stuff on your fantastic compilation. I'm going to forward this nice dialogue to Simon, so don't be surprised if it will be a bit more difficult for you to obtain my work in the future.

After this I uploaded the torrent to eTree.org, a site unrelated to Genesis, where the policy is:

"Do NOT place restrictions on what people can do with your fileset. Once you release it, it's in the public domain, subject only to the band's trading policy. Not only are "restrictions" like "Do not convert to .mp3" and "Do not remaster" completely unenforceable, but they are obnoxious, impractical and go against the spirit of the etree community."

The only way to get a torrent deleted there is if someone reports the torrent as belonging to a band that is not "Trade-Friendly", which we all know Genesis is. Since Tom knew he could not get my torrent removed on his reasoning, he contacted the site administrator and lied to him. He told him Genesis does not allow bootleg trading and that he would be sued.

Apparently, Tom is above the rules, but he applies his rules to everyone else.

Think what you will, after this I have become soured of the entire Genesis community and I am leaving. Expect this post to be gone in a matter of hours.



that's what i've got so far. the only thing is i've contacted the site administrator for etree.org and they haven't told me why the torrent was deleted, but i assume it was tom. the torrent was organized to the specifications of etree.

does anyone have any advice? could i post such a torrent on the RTSR tracker? someone please help.

[stimpee]

As administrator of the RTSR tracker, I dont think we want non-Underworld related torrents on there for the time being. I see that you have put some work into compiling this thing, and made some nice artwork. The guy who did the remastering (thats a word that can mean simple EQ basic filtering to extensive editing such as removing crowd and hiss elements) has expressed his wishes that he doesnt want it chopped up. He's right in that the cat is already out of the bag on the Genesis forums. For eTree well, its highly probable someone has reported it, yes. He did say he cant stop you, but he's going to try his best. If you really want to release it, try Torrentbox, and PM the people who wanted the compilation to tell them where it is.

Maybe its time to focus your attentions on another band. Genesis have been around since 1967. It seems like they have enough people serving their community, however inflexible they are.

There are so many out there with more willing and flexible bootleg communities. The only reason we sit on unreleased bootlegs is because we are lazy perfectionists. Underworld have been very relaxed about the distribution, and we have been spoiled, especially with LiveHereNow in recent times.

[BrotherLovesDub]

Tom is a prick. Bootleggers have absolutely no claim to fame and can assert zero control on 'their work' once it's out in the wild. Can't you just zip them up in a few mediafire links and post a link to that? If you're dealing with people like Tom, your best bet is to avoid that forum/torrent host entirely. Just say you made it, post up the tracklisting and tell people if they want it to email/pm you.

[stimpee]

Tom knows that he cant assert control, but he's trying. He's also put some work into his "remaster", so he doesnt want it chopped up. I'm not sure if he's the actual bootlegger (though it makes no difference). Once its out there it is out there. These things are supposed to be traded. If you wanted to make mashups or remixes theres nothing he could do about that either. But, he can assert control on the genesis tracker and it seems on eTree. Why not contact eTree?, as they are probably unaware that Genesis are bootleg friendly.

[bas_I_am]

I can't believe I read this entire thread.

who has less of life. . .

1. Tom
2. Daniel
3. Me

???

[Andrea]

4.

I´m not surprised about your story because this is how it went for me...

I had my first exhibition ever for a couple of weeks ago at a local Lions Club charity art exhibition. I sold a copy of my Dragonfish so I got interested in studying what kind of art people were willing to pay for these days, so I grabbed my camera and took pictures of the other sold art pieces. Suddenly a Lions functionary came to me and said that indeed, photographing has never been prohibited before but one artist now complained about people who took pictures, it was kind of insulting or something for him/her, so I had to stop taking pictures.
Honestly, I thought every exhibited art piece were meant to be watched, be photographed, be criticized etc. and I really counted on that people who are placing their creations on public view were pretty much aware about that.
I just don´t understand what a soul with so deep frustration is doing on a Lions exhibition especially if it´s true that the abbreviation LIONS stands for "Liberty Intelligence Our Nation's Safety", as Wiki says.

However I think in your case your compilations were either very bad or too good. That´s why Tom did not like it.
If people like your work, then just sell it. I haven't sold my Dragonfish because it was pointless or had a meaning but because the guy who bought it liked the colours, especially the green. Oh yes....

[froopy seal]

I'm in a rush so this is just a first shot.

Coming from a legal angle and only having scanned the thread, my first advice is: Keep calm and don't release your torrent in the way you planned.

To me, Tom's messages (read about the first half of those) sounded rational and consistent. Contrary to you, I didn't detect any 'personal vendetta'. As wrong as it may seem to a fan, Tom might hold rights as regards the 'remastering', depending on what he actually did. Isn't there a way to obtain the original sources, or use different sources/tracks?

Copyright law is inadequate for the Internet age, but it's still the law, and many companies/people go out of their ways to have it observed. If I were you and really wanted to release the compilation despite copyright issues, I'd use channels that couldn't easily be traced back to me, i.e. uploading/seeding without my registrating anywhere, no info as to me as the creator etc. Not making this legal, of course, just sayin'...

[ultradave]

Originally Posted by froopy seal

I didn't detect any 'personal vendetta'...

I'd use channels that couldn't easily be traced back to me.

sorry brother, but I'd have to agree with froopy.