myrrh bait

[Strangelet]

Originally Posted by Deckard

I can only imagine how much further we'd have evolved had we decided to instigate Rexia Law.

it boggles the mind. I can confidently say that instead of burhkas, women would wear purple feather boas.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Originally Posted by Strangelet

... women would wear purple feather boas.

I'd have never thought you'd lend yours' out. How thoughtful of you.

[bas_I_am]

Originally Posted by Strangelet

In fact its hard to argue that there isn't more sexual charge in the public display than there ever was in her walking out of her damn house with a guy.

or is that just my diseased western mentality?

I don't know, it may be just that. . . I read the response of an Islamic elder saying that while the punishment was warranted, its execution was flawwed in that it called for the beating to be administered in private by a prepubescent boy.

I could't help but feel that there was some pedophelic misogynistic eroticism at the root of it all. that may be MY diseased western mentality, too

PS please excuse any spelling errors. alot of 4 syllable words I am too lazy to look up right now

[myrrh]

I am leading a group out in the countryside and will not be around proper civilisation for another week, so sorry to disappoint in the slow responce to this. I actually didn't even know this happened, but when I am working like now, I am basically cut off from the world (I guide tourists).

Originally Posted by Strangelet

I guess I'm thinking one *can* take these incidents as representative of Islam, as much as witch hunting with christianity. Which is not saying that Islam is inherently evil or even does more evil than good. Its simply saying that the religion *is* a contributing cause to unethical behavior.

I would agree with you here in the fact that you can discuss all aspects of religions. However, this is based on what you considered ethical and unethical.

I am not sure what exactly the point that this thread was going to bring up - was it the woman issue, or the punishment for the crimes issue.

If it is the woman issue, then we know that the Taliban oppresses women. However, Islam does not. The evidence is clear all around in this, and if you actually speak to muslim women on this, they will tell you.

If it is about the flogging, then I have no issues with flogging as a punishment. Everyone talks about this being barbaric, but the reality is this type of punishment works to stop crime. The criminal system in the US, for example, does not work. It does nothing to prevent crime from happening, and it is generally repeat criminals.

As of 2007, 7.2 million Americans were incarcerated, on probation or parole. This is 1 out of 100 Americans, which is the highest rate in the world. These numbers are signs of a dysfunctional society.

So, if you are going to this route, then I can't see how saying the Wests way of doing things is any better. In fact, I would say it is worse because it is not solving the issues with crime.

[King of Snake]

Originally Posted by myrrh

If it is about the flogging, then I have no issues with flogging as a punishment. Everyone talks about this being barbaric, but the reality is this type of punishment works to stop crime.

please provide evidence to back up this "reality". Generally speaking, I think it's more realistic to say that no form of punishment has ever served (or worked very well) to stop crime, but is rather a form of retribution by society.
If a person is going to kill someone, it hardly matters if the punishment is 15 years in prison or a good old public flogging, neither is gonna deter him from his act.

As of 2007, 7.2 million Americans were incarcerated, on probation or parole. This is 1 out of 100 Americans, which is the highest rate in the world. These numbers are signs of a dysfunctional society.

Actually I think they are signs of a dysfunctional justice system more than a dysfunctional society in general.
Most of these people are incarcerated for drug-related offenses because we've collectively decided that smoking certain plants is a crime. And in the USA they take this crime just a little bit more seriously than in most other western countries (europe).

I think if something like cannabis use and posession would be completely decriminalised you'd see that incarceration rate drop quite rapidly to more normal levels.

[//\/\/]

i think that the woman's 'crime' (if you can call it so in a so-called unrepressive society) was disproportionately punished. so much so as to show the legal system to be hatstand, and repressive towards women. it's using the law as a tool of repression against women, as it's not applied across the sexes.

[Strangelet]

Originally Posted by King of Snake

please provide evidence to back up this "reality". Generally speaking, I think it's more realistic to say that no form of punishment has ever served (or worked very well) to stop crime, but is rather a form of retribution by society.
If a person is going to kill someone, it hardly matters if the punishment is 15 years in prison or a good old public flogging, neither is gonna deter him from his act.

capital punishment has been shown so many times over to *not* deter crime that its supporters have generally stopped using the the crime deterrent argument.

but hey maybe flogging will work where electrocution has failed. Makes perfect sense.

[Deckard]

Originally Posted by myrrh

Everyone talks about this being barbaric...

That's because it is.

Originally Posted by myrrh

...but the reality is this type of punishment works to stop crime. The criminal system in the US, for example, does not work.

Those are two separate assertions. The latter doesn't validate the former, which incidentally is based on the outdated assumption that criminal decision-making is principally rational. It isn't, though it raises the question of which crime we're talking about here...

Originally Posted by myrrh

to stop crime

"She came out of her house with another guy who was not her husband". What a miserable, repressive, misogynistic society that must be, for that to be a crime. And you talk about other countries being dysfunctional!

Originally Posted by myrrh

I can't see how saying the Wests way of doing things is any better

First, the West does not equal the US, as these incarceration rates (admittedly from about 5 years ago) show:

US: 714 per 100,000 residents
Russia: 548
England/Wales: 141
Canada: 116
Australia: 114
France: 95
Japan: 58

Second, pointing out "the West's" failures does not make your way of doing things the right way, either morally or effectively (correlation does not equal causation and all that)

Originally Posted by myrrh

As of 2007, 7.2 million Americans were incarcerated, on probation or parole. This is 1 out of 100 Americans, which is the highest rate in the world. These numbers are signs of a dysfunctional society.

Discounting probation or parole, nearly 2.1 million people are locked up in prison in the US. You're absolutely right, that's appalling and more than any other country in the world. Keep in mind though that almost half a million of those are there for what is termed (perhaps misleadingly) 'victimless crimes' - mainly drug related (source: sentencingproject.org) We're not talking millions of murderers or rapists here.

(And of course we can only guess at the number of rapes that occur in countries like Afghanistan, which is a not-insignificant point)

Look, I don't think many people here would disagree that there's something seriously amiss about the US penal system. That's actually besides the point. That doesn't make it right to flog someone. That doesn't make it normal to punish women for exercising personal freedom when a man doing the same thing clearly wouldn't be punished. That doesn't make it right. Essentially what I'm saying is we're fucked up, but we're not that fucked up.

[Strangelet]

well done deckard. just like to add an observation to myrrh: the fact that your argument basically boils down to "yeah we'll we're not as dysfunction as thou art" means deep down you know this is bullshit, along with every other clitoral circumcision, honor killing, and 1000 witnesses to prosecute a rape, and all the other nonsense that happens all over the islamic world.

[Strangelet]

Anyway, myrrh, the point of this thread wasn't to give you shit. And you're a good sport about the copious amounts that are thrown at you.

I just wanted to make the claim that religions that have draconian sexual prohibitions end up acting out sexually charged rituals that can be considered more lusty than the actual behaviors they are trying to control.

In mormonism and catholicism it comes across as seedy one on one "confessionals" where exact visceral details of people's sexual history is expected to be spilled out to a sweaty guy behind a desk or wire mesh. Mormon temple rituals involve getting your bits and pieces "blessed" or simply invaded depending on how you look at it. And what's more pornographic? A couple teens making out or having to spill the dirt like a phone sex operator.

The example that this thread started with, the flogging, is prime example. Extra care is placed in making it a voyeuristic/exhibitionist act, putting her in the right position, etc.

I mean you have to be *really* into girls to put that much attention on what they wear, what they show, and who are their company.

Its like the scene in persepolis, where the girl gets stopped by the iranian culture police because her gait makes her ass move suggestively. Her reply is stop looking at my ass. indeed.