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  #21  
Old 06-30-2009, 07:15 AM
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Re: Michael Jackson is DEAD!
Quote:
Originally Posted by //\/\/ View Post
"some of that stuff is indefensible - but his music is like, 1000 times more significant than any of that"

some of that stuff? even if only 'some' of that stuff is indefensible, why do you turn round and defend it with his music? does making significant music make paedophilia ok? i take it you're currently childless? there is no comparison to make between being a druggie and being a paedophile. richie james killed himself - hurt himself, no underage kids given alcohol (sorry; 'jesus juice') and encouraged to share a bed with an adult man who admitted to not thinking that that was abnormal. that's pathetic. clinton? you're comparing adultery to paedophilia?! that's beyond ridiculous.

in my eyes, you don't any more negative than paedophilia; so yes - that's what defines him in my eyes. if it was anybody else on the planet he'd be being vilified, and rightly so. are you saying that because of his success in the 70's that gary glitter should be looked upon as anything else than a sick fuck?

'there's no hard evidence that he was attracted to children'? have you spent the last decade in some sort of trance? he paid $22m or so to keep a case out of court. he came right out and said it was fine to share a bed with young boys.

i can comment all i like because the hypocrisy surrounding this stinks to high fucking heaven; and you're displaying it. there is no defence, great music or no great music. best-selling album of all time or no best-selling of all time. i'm not attacking the music he made at his (distant) peak - i'm attacking him as one father attacking another.

You're getting the wrong idea here. I'm not saying it's okay to molest children because you made good music. Of course it's indefensible. I'm not saying that adultery or drug use is the same thing at all. I'm just saying it's an incredibly negative view to have about things and especially inapproprite if you're actually saying "good riddance" when the guy kicks it. If he was a paedophile, that does not affect your life, but maybe his music does. Get over yourself. For me, music is always number one. You come off as a Nancy Grace-type person who gets outraged over things that don't effect your life in the slightest. Yes, Gary Glitter was a sick man. It doesn't mean I won't enjoy his music when it comes on. I can't say I'm self-righteous enough to wish he'd never been born. Just because some of us want to celebrate the great music that he made is not 'hypocrisy'. I can support Bill Clinton as a president without condoning what he did, too. If you want to define a man by what he does in his darkest moments, fine. But keep it out of a thread about a guy who just died.


As for MJ's allegations specifically - first of all, you do not know what "hard evidence" is. What you have is speculation. I had a neighbor whose boyfriend had faced similar accusations based on a few images that were supposedly on his computer. The problem is, they were false accusations, and he was found innocent of any wrongdoing. Unfortunately, being in a somewhat public position, he was forced to leave his job, had his name dragged through the mud, and lost most of his friends. My grandfather, who had a TV show on a local station in Ohio, was accused of sexual assault. A newspaper wrote a big front page piece on it and he killed himself as a result. He was innocent. A week later, the same newspaper printed a retraction as they found the guy they were actually looking for. Now let's take the biggest celebrity in the world. I don't know if he did anything wrong. But the media, especially the tabloids, would love you to believe he did. In this country, an accusation is as good as being guilty. Just think about it - even if he did nothing wrong, everything would have played out the same. People assume that because he paid $22m means that he's guilty - maybe he is, maybe he isn't, but either way you can be sure he just wanted to put the whole thing behind him. It was destroying his career. Yes, it is weird to think there is nothing wrong with sharing your bed with children. But if there is legitimately no attraction, it's not wrong. Just weird. And MJ was the weirdest dude of all. How can we assume anything about the intentions of a black man who tried to modify his appearance to resemble a white boy? Here's the truth of the matter - for the last 20 years, the name "Michael Jackson" was associated with so many bizarre things that not even his closest friends could figure him out. But when it comes to paedophilia, suddenly everyone knows his intentions? People love to villify others and see them go down in flames, particularly the ones different from us, and especially celebrities. Let's face it - no matter what the courts said or what the truth actually was, there was just no way this wouldn't be a permanent stain on his reputation.


Listen, if villifying the guy and believing that a man's life is defined by his worst moments helps you sleep at night, fine. I'm sure you have absolutely no skeletons in your closet. But come on, he just died. It's big news. The guy was a one-of-a-kind. Let us grieve a little.
  #22  
Old 06-30-2009, 08:49 AM
Dirty0900
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Re: Michael Jackson is DEAD!
There is a joke in the above post which is in to poor taste to repeat...
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  #23  
Old 06-30-2009, 09:22 AM
//\/\/
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Re: Michael Jackson is DEAD!
if you want wall-to-wall grieving, i'm sure the internets are full of places where you won't hear a word said against him and you can all celebrate his life and put everything else behind you and not think about them. if my objections offend you, then try one of those, rather than tell me what i should or shouldn't post.
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  #24  
Old 06-30-2009, 10:19 AM
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Re: Michael Jackson is DEAD!
Post whatever you want. It's a public forum. But don't call me a hypocrite because I choose to think of MJ as a musician first, and whatever else second. Music comes first for me. The fact that he settled a claim against him for child molestation (IIRC it was his insurance company who decided to settle in the end and it was done against his wishes anyway, but whatever) does not affect my life. If the allogations are true, it's upsetting. But MJ was too significant to be defined solely by something like that. There's a thousand child molesters out there, but only one guy with the best selling album ever - if you think the bad moments are more significant, fine. But it seems really self-serving to come into a thread about his death just to tell people that. Sadly, this is the era of the internet - even when it comes to death, people look at it as a chance to be condescending and attempt to make people feel bad because they're upset about it.
  #25  
Old 06-30-2009, 09:55 PM
sola sistim
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Re: Michael Jackson is DEAD!
Quote:
Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j View Post
Post whatever you want. It's a public forum. But don't call me a hypocrite because I choose to think of MJ as a musician first, and whatever else second. Music comes first for me. The fact that he settled a claim against him for child molestation (IIRC it was his insurance company who decided to settle in the end and it was done against his wishes anyway, but whatever) does not affect my life. If the allogations are true, it's upsetting. But MJ was too significant to be defined solely by something like that. There's a thousand child molesters out there, but only one guy with the best selling album ever - if you think the bad moments are more significant, fine. But it seems really self-serving to come into a thread about his death just to tell people that. Sadly, this is the era of the internet - even when it comes to death, people look at it as a chance to be condescending and attempt to make people feel bad because they're upset about it.
just because he had the best selling record doesnt make him any better than anyone else..
  #26  
Old 07-01-2009, 01:57 AM
chuck
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Re: Michael Jackson is DEAD!
I was going to post a comment back on Sunday, but I'm glad Nutters threw down before me - because I'm another one setting up camp in the "WTF! Who cares!" area.

"Thriller" and "Off the Wall" - outstanding albums.

The man created the music video as an outlet for creative talent - Billie Jean and Smooth Criminal - top stuff.

But since then.... please forgive me if I don't cry a fricking river - as an artist he's been pretty much irrelevant for the last 25 years. Apart from tabloid headlines and hype - there's been sweet fuck all else.

And I'm not even considering the child molesting charges.

So yeah - all the mawkish messages of hope and tearful bullshit from current music stars - where the hell were you over the last decade while this 'great' man self-imploded? In fact - where were you last week?

The fact that all the mainstrean media are camped outside his house and the Jackson family is now getting some press coverage - and Joe's attempts at rousing sympathy (hahaha - that's right Joe, it's all about the Blu-Ray!) - all point to media industry that built MJ and his like up, ripped them down - eulogise them when they're dead - and like Michael himself - are increasingly becoming irrelevant.
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  #27  
Old 07-01-2009, 06:52 AM
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Re: Michael Jackson is DEAD!
Quote:
Originally Posted by sola sistim View Post
just because he had the best selling record doesnt make him any better than anyone else..
Morally? Of course not. I'm not saying we lost come kind of Mother Teresa like figure. Just a great, one-of-a-kind musician.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck View Post
I was going to post a comment back on Sunday, but I'm glad Nutters threw down before me - because I'm another one setting up camp in the "WTF! Who cares!" area.

"Thriller" and "Off the Wall" - outstanding albums.

The man created the music video as an outlet for creative talent - Billie Jean and Smooth Criminal - top stuff.

But since then.... please forgive me if I don't cry a fricking river - as an artist he's been pretty much irrelevant for the last 25 years. Apart from tabloid headlines and hype - there's been sweet fuck all else.

And I'm not even considering the child molesting charges.

So yeah - all the mawkish messages of hope and tearful bullshit from current music stars - where the hell were you over the last decade while this 'great' man self-imploded? In fact - where were you last week?

The fact that all the mainstrean media are camped outside his house and the Jackson family is now getting some press coverage - and Joe's attempts at rousing sympathy (hahaha - that's right Joe, it's all about the Blu-Ray!) - all point to media industry that built MJ and his like up, ripped them down - eulogise them when they're dead - and like Michael himself - are increasingly becoming irrelevant.
Good points; but I'm not exactly sure what you wanted the current music stars to do. A lot of them commented on his self-implosion. It's not really big news. As for the media - yeah, it sucks that they're paying respects to him now that they can't get anything else out of him. Don't forget how desperately the media wanted to bring him down during the trials. They were paying ridiculous sums of money to anyone who was willing to tell them something condemning about the guy. Of course anyone's willing to make up a story for a half-mil and there were so many weird accusations being thrown around that it got to the point where you couldn't believe anything. Somehow I knew that Joe Jackson was gonna come out and find a way to cash in on this too; the man's always struck me as being morally bankrupt. As for not being sad because the man hasn't done anything for you lately, that's legit; but think about your favorite musicians in that light as well. I'm not going to be apathetic when David Bowie dies because I haven't liked anything he's done in nearly three decades. When my great-grandpa, who was a war hero, died, we did not just say "who cares? The guy's been in a nursing home for 10 years!"
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