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  #151  
Old 07-20-2009, 04:22 PM
34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j
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Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
For the record I think that cacaphony brought up some excellent points, albeit in a very smug and condescending way that nearly made me skip over most of it. Constantly attacking the other person is not as civil as you think it is. Also I'm not sure what your argument is here; abortion should be legal through all trimesters because fringe cases like that could happen? That's like arguing against traffic fines because people can have seizures while they're driving.
  #152  
Old 07-20-2009, 06:28 PM
Strangelet
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Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
Quote:
Originally Posted by stimpee View Post
I wish pro-lifers would put their energy and convictions into bettering education and the availability of contraception. Prevent the problem instead of rabidly opposing one of its solutions. Nobody is trying to make them do something they don't want to do. They should extend that courtesy to others who don't share their beliefs.
This is exactly the whole abortion debate for me. I'm also really convinced this thing would be in the bag if all the conservative religious leaders capped and traded all their hot air condemning the action into fixing the problem.

For me its simple: put contraceptives in the drinking water. Antidotes given by application only (and prerequisite IQ test)
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Last edited by Strangelet; 07-20-2009 at 06:37 PM.
  #153  
Old 07-20-2009, 09:39 PM
cacophony
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Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j View Post
For the record I think that cacaphony brought up some excellent points, albeit in a very smug and condescending way that nearly made me skip over most of it. Constantly attacking the other person is not as civil as you think it is. Also I'm not sure what your argument is here; abortion should be legal through all trimesters because fringe cases like that could happen? That's like arguing against traffic fines because people can have seizures while they're driving.
smug and condescending is how i roll. this forum used to be active and fun because people weren't afraid to lay it out on the table. folks had thick skin and i never saw an argument taken personally until, say, the last year or so. things have changed, i suppose. except me, i'm not interested in change.

and frankly i don't think i made an argument. i'm not going back to re-read but i'm fairly certain i made no statements about my personal beliefs when it comes to abortion rights. i presented a scenario and asked those who think all abortion should be illegal to explain how the issues would be handled in a no-abortion world.

i certainly don't believe abortion should be legal at any point during pregnancy. frankly, having experienced pregnancy myself i'm actually very uncomfortable with the legal limit being set at 24 weeks. i felt one of the boys move at 16 weeks and at that moment i knew he was a separate being who wasn't just a cluster of cells, but my child. i didn't feel the other baby move until later because of where he was positioned, but i felt the same way about him, too.

unfortunately as much as i'm uncomfortable with the idea of legal abortions up until 24 weeks, i have to think through what i now know of the pregnancy screening process. for most pregnancies 20 weeks is the earliest you can do some crucial testing to tell you whether there are developmental or chromosomal abnormalities. if you wait until 20 weeks and get bad results, retesting would push you out to at least 22 weeks for confirmation. like if you ended up needing an amniocentesis, for example. in situations where there may be serious concerns about the development of the baby, i can see needing to allow for action to take place at that stage.

i know too many girls from the twin groups i'm a member of who delivered at 24 weeks to feel comfortable with that as a cutoff. and a week doesn't make a damn bit of difference to me, 23 is too early. which means 22 is too early. so my gut says fuckit, let's just say 20 is your last chance.

but here's the thing. there's a difference between what i believe in terms of a baby's viability and what i believe should be established as a legal framework around the procedure.

in my perfect world there would be no abortions after, say 12 weeks. that, in my opinion, is long enough to realize you've missed a period, pee on a stick, visit a doctor for confirmation, and make a decision about your pregnancy. after 12 weeks, in my opinion, cold feet should no longer be a valid excuse for abortion. only personal hardship and medical reasons should apply after that point.

but see, that's me superimposing my personal beliefs gained through my personal sense of connection to my own pregnancy. when you start talking about bringing government into it you cross a line that i don't think should be crossed. there's a danger in applying your own emotional baggage to society as a whole and trying to craft laws (which inevitably must apply punishment for violations) to the rest of the population. so while i feel strongly that my babies were people from the moment they were conceived, i refuse to force the rest of society to create a law based on that. hell, i also believe my dead mother visits me in my dreams. shall we create laws around that, too? my personal beliefs concerning the existence and persistence of the soul belong about a thousand lightyears away from any governing body.

So then i come back to rationalize it again. 24 weeks makes sense as a cutoff because at that point there is a small but real chance of viability, that the baby(ies) could survive outside of the womb. for medical emergencies the procedure should be on the table after that, but not for any other reason. i don't like it, not one itty bitty bit. i don't like the idea that someone would go 16 weeks (4 months!!) into a pregnancy and suddenly go, "you know what, i changed my mind." i don't like the idea that people aren't keeping their goddamn knees together or using appropriate protection and preventing themselves from making babies in the first place. hey, it ain't hard. i did it for 31 years, never even had a scare.

but i'm not going to advocate the idea that we make laws to punish people who aren't as paranoid about pregnancy as i was. i don't drink either, and you don't see me out campaigning to make booze illegal. when you weigh out the consequences of the two choices, terminating unwanted pregnancies versus forcing women to bear unwanted children, i think the second choice is a worse crime.

this probably reads like a disjointed string of gobbledygook because i'm up way past my bedtime thanks to two cranky boys who didn't ask permission to split their egg into two 19 months ago.
  #154  
Old 07-21-2009, 05:00 AM
Sarcasmo
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Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j View Post
Thank you for such a rational non-biased argument
And thank you for the non-sarcastic, totally genuine response. To clarify my stance; I just recently got married. In a church. Belonging to a protestant religion so close to Catholicism, we may as well take advice from the Pope. I myself am a religious person, and I take my wedding vows as the sacred promises they are. However, like cacophony, I'm able to divorce my particular situation from the reality of what I see, and what I see is a society that thinks marriage is some kind of neat thing to do, and discard, on a whim. I see a society that bases their opinion of gay marriage on fear and bigotry rather than evidence and logic. I see a religious community stirred up by attention-seeking politicians and paranoid fundamentalists that are totally missing the point. Hypocritically so.
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  #155  
Old 07-21-2009, 06:53 AM
34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j
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Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasmo View Post
And thank you for the non-sarcastic, totally genuine response. To clarify my stance; I just recently got married. In a church. Belonging to a protestant religion so close to Catholicism, we may as well take advice from the Pope. I myself am a religious person, and I take my wedding vows as the sacred promises they are. However, like cacophony, I'm able to divorce my particular situation from the reality of what I see, and what I see is a society that thinks marriage is some kind of neat thing to do, and discard, on a whim. I see a society that bases their opinion of gay marriage on fear and bigotry rather than evidence and logic. I see a religious community stirred up by attention-seeking politicians and paranoid fundamentalists that are totally missing the point. Hypocritically so.
Yeah, there's a point to be made here, and you had me right up until you said something implying that the same anti-gay marriage people were beating their wives and children; afaik that'll land you in jail. I don't really know much about the gay marriage argument, and honestly don't really care; I think it's pretty much inevitable that it'll pass, probably sooner rather than later. I don't think 'society' bases their opinions on fear and bigotry; honestly I have yet to meet someone who argues against it on anything but logical grounds.
  #156  
Old 07-21-2009, 10:28 AM
Deckard
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Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
Quote:
I don't think 'society' bases their opinions on fear and bigotry; honestly I have yet to meet someone who argues against it on anything but logical grounds.
What an opinion is based on and how it's openly argued are often two very different things. I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss underlying fear and ignorance as causes, despite how the opinions are justified.
  #157  
Old 07-21-2009, 12:18 PM
cacophony
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Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j View Post
I don't think 'society' bases their opinions on fear and bigotry; honestly I have yet to meet someone who argues against it on anything but logical grounds.
saying "the bible says adam and eve, not adam and steve" has nothing to do with bigotry, and is totally a logical argument?
  #158  
Old 07-21-2009, 01:08 PM
jOHN rODRIGUEZ
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Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasmo View Post
And thank you... I'm able to divorce my particular situation from the reality of what I see, ...

But you don't want to piss me off, you wouldn't like me when I'm angry...

ITSA JOKE! ITSA JOKE!!!

And could everyone just STFU about the gay marriage bit?!?
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  #159  
Old 07-21-2009, 01:25 PM
34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j
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Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cacophony View Post
saying "the bible says adam and eve, not adam and steve" has nothing to do with bigotry, and is totally a logical argument?
That's true, but it's an argument for "according to the bible, the first married couple was a man and a woman" and not much else. We've all outgrown the garden.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckard View Post
What an opinion is based on and how it's openly argued are often two very different things. I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss underlying fear and ignorance as causes, despite how the opinions are justified.
This does swing both ways though. You can pretty much apply this to anything. How many of the people who want marijuana legalized simply want to smoke it themselves without fear of retribution? Does the RIAA really think that file-sharing hurts the artists? Likewise, couldn't it be argued that all the gays that support same sex marriage are biased and will argue in favor regardless of whether or not, deep down, they think it's a good idea for society? Wouldn't a midget argue in favor of lowering rollercoaster height standards being relaxed and call the theme parks "anti-midget rights"?
  #160  
Old 07-21-2009, 02:42 PM
Strangelet
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Re: is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j View Post
Likewise, couldn't it be argued that all the gays that support same sex marriage are biased and will argue in favor regardless of whether or not, deep down, they think it's a good idea for society?
I really have no idea where you're going with this and what you're getting at, but....

I think it should be pretty clear why the LBGT side is fighting for same sex marriage. To have society accept relationships under the construct of marriage is de facto total acceptance of their lifestyle. So its not about any one priviledge afforded by civil contracts, but full integration as a minority into society.

Basically if you can get married and be gay you can be gay categorically.
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