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  #1  
Old 09-04-2009, 04:32 PM
Sean
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Strange anger at Obama for Tuesday speech to schools
So I participated in a poll on facebook today that asked in regards to Obama's speech planned for next Tuesday: "Should President Obama be allowed to do a nationwide address to school children without parental consent?" I voted "yes". The speech is about staying in school, working hard, and exercising personal responsibility. Super! (Incidentally, vote here. Amazingly, the "yes" column is losing badly to the "no" column) So once I voted, I added a comment to the thread attached to the poll. I wrote:

"Why in the world shouldn't the President of the United States be able to address schoolchildren about staying in school and working hard? Was there an outcry when Nancy Reagen spoke directly to American youth about her "just say no" policy? I don't remember one. There is definitely a portion of the country that seems to be going insane with blind, irrational vitriol at Obama, and it disgusts me. This isn't a political speech, it's not an indoctrination of anyone...it's not malicious in any way!

As for some of the comments here, I have to say that I'm floored. Here's one quote:

"when i hear about all the dumb shit that obama is doing like birth control and abortion without parental consent, im like 'this is sick!'"

First off, this person is clearly ignorant about things like "facts" and "reality". Secondly, what do either of these issues have to do with a speech about staying in school and getting a good education?

Idiots."


Moments later, I got a private message through facebook from a guy who opposes the speech, and we went back and forth a few times. I thought some of you might appreciate a glimpse into his mind. So here's the exchange:

Richard Austin McGrath September 4 at 11:33am
It's OUR job to teach OUR kids to be good citizens. Now be honest, if Bush did this you would have come unglued. This is not just a five minute "hey kids be good and stay in school" speech, It's upwards of an hour long, this is about image building in our children's young minds. Again just be honest and admit you don't mind because it's in you party's favor, I'd have more respect for you if you did, oh that's right, you don't want my respect! And before you go painting me as a neocon, I'm actually an independent.


Sean Mullen September 4 at 11:43am
I'm a registered independent, so I have no vested interest in the Democrats or Republicans. In fact, I voted for Bush over Gore, and over Kerry. In hindsight I would not have voted that way if I had it to do over again, but there it is. So if Bush was set to give a speech urging "students to take personal responsibility for their own education, to set goals, and to not only stay in school but make the most of it", then I'd be all for it. Incidentally, the quote about the speech's content I just provided was from the same website that will be hosting the text of the speech a full day before it happens so that parents CAN know what to expect, and CAN teach their kids to be good citizens. Here's the link: http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/My-Education-My-Future/

The rabid opposition to this speech has absolutely zero justification.


Richard Austin McGrath September 4 at 12:06pm
Maybe he should do this in the evening hours when parents can decide weather or not to have there kids watch, and if they do, address what he says right then? Again this enables him to get at the kids who's parents who would let them play video games all night instead of watching it, and for the purpose of image building, just like when your a kid and dad always cheers for the university of Michigan, when you grow up...you do too!


Sean Mullen September 4 at 12:19pm
Well, we have yet to see the text of the speech, but again, all reports are that the content is specifically geared towards telling "students to take personal responsibility for their own education, to set goals, and to not only stay in school but make the most of it". That's as non-partisan a message as I can imagine, so it leaves those of us who have no problem with it no other choice but to think that this vehement opposition must be based on something other than the speech itself. And based on your reply here, I can see that your concern seems to be built around some kind of indoctrination scenario. You make comments like that this "enables him to get at the kids", which implies a predatory angle to the speech, and you make the analogy about cheering the University of Michigan as if the speech will be trying to recruit future Democrats. What's most striking to me about both these examples is that neither has anything to do with what's actually set to happen. What exactly is wrong with the President of our country encouraging children to exercise personal responsibility, stay in school and get a good education?


Richard Austin McGrath September 4 at 12:24pm
My job.


Sean Mullen September 4 at 4:01pm
I'm sorry, but I don't know what you mean when you just say "my job". You chose to start this conversation, so it would be great if you could at least participate with complete thoughts and sentences. All I know is that you wrote to me with assumptive accusations that I was some liberal thoughtlessly towing the party line, and then immediately followed it up by telling me that it would be wrong for me to try painting you as something you're not. Hypocritical much? Then you listed a bunch of completely unrelated examples about how this speech will somehow undermine parent's ability to properly educate their children - as if any parent out there would be upset by their children hearing the message to stay in school, work hard, and take personal responsibility for their actions. Maybe that's not something you want your children to hear, but I find it to be a positive, constructive message.

If however, by "my job", you mean that it's your job to teach your children about working hard, staying in school and exercising personal responsibility, then let me ask - are you equally undermined by school guidance counsellors when they meet with your children in your absence, and encourage them to keep these same principles in mind? Are you upset when a speaker comes to your children's school in your absence - say perhaps a police officer - to talk to the kids about the importance of being a law abiding citizen? How about any of the other people who interact with your children throughout any given day away from you at school? I would assume you are, because this is really no different. Seems like that kind of anger would end up being all-consuming since it happens all the time.

Here's what I would do with my kids. When the text of the speech is released on Monday, I would read it, probably even with my children. Then I would talk with them about it - talk about what's going to be said, what I feel they need to keep in mind while they listen, and answer any questions they have. On Tuesday evening, after the speech, I'd talk with them again. Answer any new questions they might have. None of that would compromise my ability to fulfill my parental duties. And honestly, I would probably feel most compelled to talk about the obvious sociological ramifications of this unfounded, irrational opposition we're seeing to our President conveying such a universally positive message. Because even the mind of a child would immediately question vitriol that's so illogical in nature, and frankly, I think I would have a hard time explaining it. Me: "Well son, they don't want the President encouraging you to stay in school." My son: "But...shouldn't I stay in school?" Me: "Well yes, of course, but opponents don't want Obama saying that to you." My son: "Why not?" Me: "I have no clue."

Look Richard, I'm not one to go straight to accusing opponents of this speech of things like racism, because that's an incredibly serious charge. But it's hard not to entertain that and other unrelated motives as playing some part here in the absence of any reasonable, logical arguments as to why we should oppose this speech. Feel free to message me if you ever come up with a coherent, realistic reason as to why this speech is such an outrage, but if all you have to offer is more unfounded accusations against me, and conspiracy theories about indoctrination fears, then I'm really not interested.


No idea if he'll reply to that last one or not, but there's what's happened so far.
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  #2  
Old 09-04-2009, 09:42 PM
Strangelet
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Re: Strange anger at Obama for Tuesday speech to schools
Well good showing as always, I don't think he realized what he was getting into. I've said this before but I envy your ability to stay reasonable and at least engage.

Cable news talked about Barney Frank's "outburst" as so sensational. For a statesman to say "Talking to you would be like arguing with a kitchen table" to a constituent?! Scandal!

I'm pretty sure we disagree on this, but I'm convinced America is fucked. I see no productive method of reasoning against the zeitgeist marketed by the handlers of America's kakistocracy. At this point its a foregone conclusion that Brussels, (and probably Brazil!) will be more politically powerful than us in 10 years and that our empire is coming to an end. Which is fine by me. America was never meant to be an empire. What I'm starting to worry about is whether or not any shred of the conceived republic will remain.

But this puts me in a position where I've nothing to offer dialog except raw emotion and the perennial desire to punch people in the face. Which is why I'm quiet and detaching until I can come to grips with the total loss of respect and patriotism for my country, its culture, and a large swath of its population.
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Last edited by Strangelet; 09-04-2009 at 09:45 PM.
  #3  
Old 09-04-2009, 10:01 PM
jOHN rODRIGUEZ
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Re: Strange anger at Obama for Tuesday speech to schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangelet View Post
...I've nothing to offer dialog except raw emotion and the perennial desire to punch people in the face. . .

That's not very rico suave now, is it?

Have you bought any new leather items?



You're kinda a bitchy philosophy grad sometimes too. And oh so manly at the same time. I like the first sentence/third paragraph of your post, but it's always been bit fucked. I do absolutely(, I'm smart now too) love how the true wacks are coming out of the woodwork at the moment. Makes life fun, no?
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Last edited by jOHN rODRIGUEZ; 09-05-2009 at 12:39 AM.
  #4  
Old 09-04-2009, 11:02 PM
Strangelet
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Re: Strange anger at Obama for Tuesday speech to schools
well i see i've still got jr. playing tag along. you don't waste any time do you? Do you have a fucking bat signal to alert you to go down the pole and put on your troll costume? i have no idea what you just said but I have to tell you its not going work. I'm completely numb to being mocked for being sincere by people who are afraid of confronting their own inner dialog. I'm a philosophy grad.
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  #5  
Old 09-05-2009, 02:22 AM
Sean
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Re: Strange anger at Obama for Tuesday speech to schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangelet View Post
I'm pretty sure we disagree on this, but I'm convinced America is fucked. I see no productive method of reasoning against the zeitgeist marketed by the handlers of America's kakistocracy. At this point its a foregone conclusion that Brussels, (and probably Brazil!) will be more politically powerful than us in 10 years and that our empire is coming to an end. Which is fine by me. America was never meant to be an empire. What I'm starting to worry about is whether or not any shred of the conceived republic will remain.
Well, I don't know what's going to happen, but it feels like something is coming to a head with all this stuff. So many people are so into these outlandish theories, like that not only is Obama hiding his Kenyan citizenship, he was also selected at 18 years old to be groomed as a Puppet President who would impliment a New World Order! And he's creating death panels that will kill your grandmother so that we can provide all of Mexico with insurance instead! And now he wants to commandeer the airwaves and stream his communist agenda directly into our children's spongy minds! Just like Hitler did!

I mean, how can I seriously be open to their completely speculative point of view when I find it to be completely, 100% wrong based on facts? I just don't see where the middle ground is in this situation. Hell, they deal with the debate by bringing guns to townhalls, shouting down the opposition, and even jeering a woman confined to a wheelchair for talking about why healthcare reform would be good for people like her. How do you reason with that? So I have no clue where this country is headed.
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  #6  
Old 09-05-2009, 02:55 AM
BeautifulBurnout
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Re: Strange anger at Obama for Tuesday speech to schools
I'm finding this all a tad scary. I don't know whether to put it down to the last throes of madness as the American Empire falls into decline, or whether it is just the continuation of the paranoia that has always haunted the fringes of American society. McCarthy didn't happen in a vacuum; you have to have the right soil there in the first place for the seeds of bonkers-ness to germinate.

There is a very interesting article on the website Democracy Now! where Max Blumenthal talks about his book "Republican Gomorrah: Inside the Movement that Shattered the Party"

Quote:
Fifty years ago, Republican President Dwight Eisenhower issued a warning against the rise of extremist movements within his own party. During his presidency, Eisenhower had endured attacks by Senator Joseph McCarthy, the radical right John Birch Society and others. In a 1959 letter to a World War II veteran, Eisenhower wrote, quote, “Many prominent officials, possessing no standing or expertness as they themselves claim it, attempt to further their own ideas or interests by resorting to statements more distinguished by stridency than by accuracy.”
Half a century later, in a summer of town hall disruptions and birth certificate controversies, what Eisenhower had warned against has come true: that the Republican Party has been captured by its extremist wing.
The problem with these people is they are clearly nuts, they are angry, they have guns, and they have the likes of Limbaugh lighting the blue touch-paper and stepping back.

I don't know whether to point and laugh, or to advise you all to build a shelter and start stock-piling canned goods and bottled water....
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  #7  
Old 09-05-2009, 04:00 AM
King of Snake
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Re: Strange anger at Obama for Tuesday speech to schools
scare mongering the population to make them do your bidding is a tried and tested concept. It is what the reublicans/Fox do best and will continue to keep doing until one of those idiots who bring assault rifles to town hall meetings actually pulls the trigger.
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  #8  
Old 09-05-2009, 08:17 AM
Deckard
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Re: Strange anger at Obama for Tuesday speech to schools
The number of times I read comments below articles and just get floored by the sheer amount of stupidity. And I don't just mean people being in the unfortunate position of being uneducated, or lacking time to get up to speed on the intricacies of healthcare systems or international development. For the most part that ignorance is entirely understandable. No, what I mean is that very unique mix of unforgivable stupidity, combined with selfishness and topped off with spite and occasional thuggishness.

Really, it depresses me nowadays. After all, we're not talking YouTube comments here. Reading comments on mainstream platforms, more and more, genuinely depresses me. I think to myself, are people actually getting dumber? Or has the internet - and the explosion of opinion platforms - merely drawn back the curtain on stupidity that was always lying there, unnoticed?

Sometimes I feel optimistic that the internet is making people more informed, dispersing information, supplying examples of reasoning all of which represents the most wonderful intellectual revolution in centuries, and that slowly, ignorance is being countered. I tell myself that what seems to be the moronic 60% of public opinion is probably only 10% or less, and I'm being fooled into registering those particular neanderthal views more strongly than they warrant, which is throwing my perception of how proportionate they are.

Other times, I think - no, it really is as bad as I fear. And I fear that the internet - and digital communication platforms generally - are increasing the tribal mindset, reducing the amount of open-mindedness so crucial to any kind of intellectual growth. That people have gotten much more ideologically divided since the communications revolution (for want of a better phrase), and not in a healthy way.

One thing I can say is that it's not just the US. Or at least, if the US is going down, then the UK is going down with it. I think what we're all hearing said about Obama is coming from the same 'place' as what I read on British mainstream opinion platforms like the BBC and Sky News and even supposedly liberal blogs. A kind of mean-spirited anti-intellectualism.

In America's case, this is possibly made worse by latent racism, and by a deep culture of machismo that, it strikes me, has long run through US political debate and was always going to pounce on the skinny, cerebral liberal who showed the remotest sign of asking people to think.

What do you think? Is there a 90% silent majority of people who have reasonable views and just choose not to comment? (Btw, 'reasonable' doesn't have to equate to the same political position as yours or mine - it just has to be of a fairly decent quality.)

God I hope so. I hope these dickwads aren't indicative of our populations as a whole.

If they are, where is it all going wrong? And why does there appear to be no reverse gear?
  #9  
Old 09-05-2009, 08:23 AM
Deckard
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Re: Strange anger at Obama for Tuesday speech to schools
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangelet View Post
you don't waste any time do you? Do you have a fucking bat signal to alert you to go down the pole and put on your troll costume?
Oh god this made me laugh so much!!
  #10  
Old 09-05-2009, 11:10 AM
Sean
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Re: Strange anger at Obama for Tuesday speech to schools
. Seriously, you'll appreciate this...
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