U.S. Presidential Election 2008

[Strangelet]

Originally Posted by cacophony

yeah, the beautiful resignation speech where he quoted almost continuously form the bible and spoke eloquently about the need to completely remove all legal access to safe abortions?

yes, it was so beautiful.

basically, to quote bill clinton, there are more things that are similar among us than are different. So, no I have no problem appreciating the spirit and the tenor of a politician with whom I don't agree. Seriously. Besides my dad quotes the " I fought the good fight" stuff from the paul epistles all the time and not to rationalize bigotry but to console himself as an 84 year old.

so seriously, don't see a big deal here.

[Sean]

This election is driving me crazy.

I've just been catching up on the news and I've seen everything from Bill Richardson urging Hillary Clinton to consider dropping out of the race (http://tinyurl.com/379jx9):

But potentially more troublesome for Mrs. Clinton was what Mr. Richardson said in announcing his decision. He criticized the tenor of Mrs. Clinton’s campaign. He praised Mr. Obama for the speech he gave in response to the furor over racially incendiary remarks delivered by Mr. Obama’s former pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr.
And he came close to doing what Mrs. Clinton’s advisers have increasingly feared some big-name Democrat would do as the battle for the nomination drags on: Urge Mrs. Clinton to step aside in the interest of party unity.
“I’m not going to advise any other candidate when to get in and out of the race,” Mr. Richardson said after appearing in Portland with Mr. Obama. “Senator Clinton has a right to stay in the race, but eventually we don’t want to go into the Democratic convention bloodied. This was another reason for my getting in and endorsing, the need to perhaps send a message that we need unity.”

...to Obama campaign co-chair Merrill McPeak, saying that Bill Clinton was seeming to imply that among the three candidates, Obama doesn't love this country, and doesn't have the interests of the country in mind. The quote from Bill Clinton (http://tinyurl.com/ytx8zn):

"I think it would be a great thing if we had an election year where you had two people who loved this country and were devoted to the interest of this country," said Clinton, who was speaking to a group of veterans Friday in Charlotte, N.C. "And people could actually ask themselves who is right on these issues, instead of all this other stuff that always seems to intrude itself on our politics."

It's difficult to say whether Clinton's remarks were directed at Obama, or if they were just a general desire for where the tone of this campaign should be. But given the history of negative, divisive campaigning by the Clintons, and the fact that he made these comments in the context of only mentioning Hillary and McCain, I tend to think that it was a subtle swipe meant to strengthen the recent b.s. that's had some folks wrongfully questioning Obama's patriotism.

And of course, the "controversy" over Wright carries on into it's 11th day. How long will it be before people realize that the biggest concern to date with Obama is concern over stuff he never said himself, and that he's been very clear he doesn't agree with? Am I living in bizzaro-world? If I believed in god, I'd be asking it to please let people get smarter and more honest between now and November.

And incidentally, if the job of the superdelegates is to serve as a safeguard against the Democratic Party destroying itself, then when exactly would be a better time for them to weigh in than now? According to the latest I've seen, 1 in 5 Democrats have already stated that they'll vote for McCain in November if "their" candidate doesn't win the nomination, and that's been a direct result of Hillary Clinton's negative and divisive campaign aimed at tearing down Obama as a viable candidate.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by cacophony

yeah, the beautiful resignation speech where he quoted almost continuously form the bible and spoke eloquently about the need to completely remove all legal access to safe abortions?

yes, it was so beautiful.

I think everyone's been very clear that they don't agree with Huckabee on most of the issues. The comments regarding the beauty of his resignation speech, or where he's likeable are all in reference to the fact that he's been a rare politician in how he handles himself. He seems to be a straight shooter, and a genuinely good guy who places principle over politics. His comments about the Wright "controversy" are even more evidence of this. So I think it's fair to say that we can recognize these as good qualities while still differing from him philosophically on the issues.

[Strangelet]

blah blah blah rant rant rant...

...that leaves the clintons on the level of hannity. nice job douchebags

[Strangelet]

so basically nix the above rant based on the following clarification about Bill's comments. They are vehemently denying any attempted attack on Obama's patriotism.

http://facts.hillaryhub.com/


It would be nice if they just came out and said this unequivocally, so people don't get their message misconstrued but for the moment, I'm back to admiring bill clinton again.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Strangelet

so basically nix the above rant based on the following clarification about Bill's comments. They are vehemently denying any attempted attack on Obama's patriotism.

http://facts.hillaryhub.com/


It would be nice if they just came out and said this unequivocally, so people don't get their message misconstrued but for the moment, I'm back to admiring bill clinton again.

I had heard this rebuttle, but given how dirty and cheap they've been campaigning for Hillary, I don't know if I buy the explanation yet. Frankly, almost everything that's come out of her campaign since the run-up to Texas and Ohio has been lies that she seems to get a pass on. She's still been pushing the debunked story about Obama giving Canada the "wink wink" treatment even after all involved parties have set the record straight, she claimed that her vast foreign policy experience included a key role in achieving peaced in Northern Ireland, opening the borders of Kosovo, and working for women's rights in China, all of which have turned out to be bull-ca-ca claims, she's insisted that she was always against NAFTA even though her newly released White House papers reveal meetings in which she actively worked with women's groups to help get it passed, and she claims that she's working to get the votes of Florida and Michigan counted purely out of concern over disenfranchisement when there are actual recordings of her from before those state's primaries where she says they don't matter. Those are just a few of her latest lies off the top of my head, so given their apparent inability to be truthful about anything, I take the explanation with a grain of salt. A gigantic grain of salt. I wouldn't be surprised if Bill Clinton's comments were worded as they were very specifically so that they could add onto the ridiculous claim that Obama is somehow "anti-American" while still being able to say "no no no...you misunderstood. What he really meant was..."

I'm starting to think that thanks to Hillary Clinton, we'll be looking at a McCain administration in November.


EDIT - On the upside, brand new gallup polls show that Obama has made up his brief defecit in poll numbers from this past week. http://www.gallup.com/poll/105529/Ga...d-Clinton.aspx

[cacophony]

Originally Posted by Sean

I think everyone's been very clear that they don't agree with Huckabee on most of the issues. The comments regarding the beauty of his resignation speech, or where he's likeable are all in reference to the fact that he's been a rare politician in how he handles himself. He seems to be a straight shooter, and a genuinely good guy who places principle over politics. His comments about the Wright "controversy" are even more evidence of this. So I think it's fair to say that we can recognize these as good qualities while still differing from him philosophically on the issues.

see, i can't get behind that. he fundamentally approves of revoking basic human rights for all women. i don't care what a charming fellow he is. it makes him a dangerous politician and a horrible human being.

i seriously don't see the necessity in separating the man from his beliefs. i wonder if anyone would praise his character if he used the same "good guy" manner to propose manditory burkas for all women.

and before anyone says that's not a fair comparison, watch your step.

[Sarcasmo]

Originally Posted by cacophony

see, i can't get behind that. he fundamentally approves of revoking basic human rights for all women. i don't care what a charming fellow he is. it makes him a dangerous politician and a horrible human being.

i seriously don't see the necessity in separating the man from his beliefs. i wonder if anyone would praise his character if he used the same "good guy" manner to propose manditory burkas for all women.

and before anyone says that's not a fair comparison, watch your step.

Wait, wait, wait just a second. "Basic human rights?" Such as? Is he proposing legislature to take women out of schools? Is he proposing legislature to put them back in the kitchen? Is he going to lower the glass ceiling? Is he threatening a woman's right to vote? Is he going to make implied consent legal? Is he going to require ankle length dresses? Is he going to make it a misdemeanor to beat women?

The guy is anti-abortion, as far as I can tell, and to label him as a dangerous politician and a horrible human being, simply because his belief system says that abortion is murder, seems a little far fetched. Simply put, if he were in office, no one would have to worry about their right to choose. The fucking abortion issue has been beat to death for the last 40 years, and as I see it, there's no way that it's going to be made illegal any day soon. If Roe v. Wade held up through Reagan and Bush part deux, it's gonna hold up some more.

I'm not saying that I agree with Huckabee on anything in particular, but the "he hate women" rhetoric is wearing pretty thin. Besides, think about the kind of respect that our last president/philanderer had for women. If the issue of hating and disrespecting women is so important in a president, then why was the last one so popular? Finally: we've got a lot more important things we could be fighting about. Why are we even arguing Huckabee's hypothetical leadership anyway? He's out of the race.

[Strangelet]

Originally Posted by cacophony

see, i can't get behind that. he fundamentally approves of revoking basic human rights for all women. i don't care what a charming fellow he is. it makes him a dangerous politician and a horrible human being.

i seriously don't see the necessity in separating the man from his beliefs. i wonder if anyone would praise his character if he used the same "good guy" manner to propose manditory burkas for all women.

and before anyone says that's not a fair comparison, watch your step.

I just listened again to the 15 minute speech and about 3 to 4 seconds (the time it takes to utter "and giving a voice to unborn babies") were about abortion. The remaining 14:55 minutes dealt with grass roots politics, making government less corrupt, fixing the tax code, his family, and religious beliefs.

I'm not suggesting he didn't make crazy statements in the past about abortion, likening it to genocide and the cause of illegal immigration and such. But I wasn't talking about the past, I was talking about his speech, and the fact that he had the nobility to stand up against the obama smear when doing so could counter against his loyalty score with the neo con campaign. And hell we ought to throw in his performance during a televised debate when he responded to a question about evolution, asking in return what the hell it mattered if he believed in evolution or not, that he wasn't writing an 8th grade science curriculum, but running for the presidency and basically he didn't know how the world created if it was absolutely imperative he answer the question.

If your interest here is to reinforce how potentially damaging his views on abortion would be to women's health and freedoms, know that I am behind you 100%.

But basically I am fundamentally disappointed when people think they should put their fingers in their ears and scream lalalalalala with respect to their philosophical opponents or strip away their human will and see them as one big symbol for evil. That practice has caused enough mischief to be a symbol of evil in itself. It would allow me to consider Bush devoid of moral value and therefore, in a way, sub human. ANd that's the conditions upon which people excuse violence from ideology. I think what Bush has done to Iraq is evil if only by consequence versus intent. That doesn't mean I can't allow myself to respect something I believe he's done right. Cheney on the other hand is the anti christ, that's true.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by cacophony

see, i can't get behind that. he fundamentally approves of revoking basic human rights for all women. i don't care what a charming fellow he is. it makes him a dangerous politician and a horrible human being.

i seriously don't see the necessity in separating the man from his beliefs. i wonder if anyone would praise his character if he used the same "good guy" manner to propose manditory burkas for all women.

and before anyone says that's not a fair comparison, watch your step.

And I guess the way that your response helps me explain my point is that while I disagree with you on this, I still like and respect you overall. Even though you're totally wrong here.