Gaza

[Deckard]

Hamas rocket hits also now on Google Maps.

And without wanting to turn this into a spectacle (probably unavoidable), some quite good photos of what's going on here:

Israel and Gaza

Scenes from the Gaza Strip

[Deckard]

Originally Posted by Strangelet

as do i, but are we willing to take it to the next step? To terrorize a population into changing their political/cultural ends defines terrorism. Which means Israel's policy is the policy of a terrorist state, which obliterates all this hoohaa about sidelining hamas as a singularly evil, nonconventional, rogue organization, not just the other side of the coin?

It's really quite simple: terrorism is what our leaders declare it to be.

The US (and yes, us as well) make up the dominant powers of current world order, therefore - surprise surprise - terrorism is what's committed by the Palestinians rather than the Israelis, the East Timorese rather than the Indonesians, the Nicaraguans rather than the US, the Irish rather than the British, the Cubans.... etc etc

No need to get bogged down in defining aggression or resistance or nasty complicated things like that.

[chuck]

Originally Posted by Deckard

Hamas rocket hits also now on Google Maps.

And without wanting to turn this into a spectacle (probably unavoidable), some quite good photos of what's going on here:

Israel and Gaza

Scenes from the Gaza Strip

The Big Picture website is superb, and I really enjoy what they do with images there. I do feel a little odd looking at these though - there's something quite different about the aspects.

That is to say - the photos of the Israeli victims are so very different from the Palestinian victims. There is a different feel almost. Both sides are cowering, but one side is more pitiful, more afraid, more downtrodden.

Perhaps that's my bias coming through.

And lets be honest, both sides are victims.

There is no them.

And this conflict will continue as long as someone on both sides thinks there is a them and an us.

[Deckard]

Originally Posted by chuck

The Big Picture website is superb, and I really enjoy what they do with images there. I do feel a little odd looking at these though - there's something quite different about the aspects.

That is to say - the photos of the Israeli victims are so very different from the Palestinian victims. There is a different feel almost. Both sides are cowering, but one side is more pitiful, more afraid, more downtrodden.

Perhaps that's my bias coming through.

And lets be honest, both sides are victims.

There is no them.

And this conflict will continue as long as someone on both sides thinks there is a them and an us.

It is a good site, but I get very wary about turning the whole thing into a sideshow - but then I guess the news is not as far removed from that as we might like to think sometimes.

Anyway, some more images from the conflict here.


This one is pretty graphical, be warned.

And this one caught my eye...



'Israelis look out towards the northern Gaza Strip from a hill near the southern town of Sderot during an air strike - January 1, 2009'

My revulsion is obviously hinged on the assumption that we can take this for how it looks (and boy are we quick enough to do just that when it's the darker-skinned less well-dressed lot looking gleeful).

[dubman]

Originally Posted by Deckard

At least 40 people have been killed in an Israeli air strike on a United Nations-run school in the Gaza Strip, Palestinian medical sources have said.

A number of children were among those who died when the al-Fakhura school in the Jabaliya refugee camp took a direct hit, doctors at nearby hospitals said.

People inside had been taking refuge from the Israeli ground offensive.

Earlier, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) warned of a "full-blown humanitarian crisis" in Gaza.

"you guys blew up a school!"

"YEAH WELL... someone was shooting at us from there see we have pictures"

"THOSE ARE FROM 2004"

"LOL"

[Strangelet]

very good dialog between lanny davis, you might remember him as one of hillary's campaigners, and prof. neve gordon. covers a lot of the points we've made here about proportionality and the definition of terrorism.

http://cdn2.libsyn.com/democracynow/...3f5d373aa134cc

[Strangelet]

I wonder if you need to be painted bright yellow and sold bottom floor sears to even more resemble a tool.

JOE : Do you think Israel is bad?
Reporter : Well I'm Israeli, so...
JOE : Answer the question!

[IsiliRunite]

Originally Posted by Deckard

(and boy are we quick enough to do just that when it's the darker-skinned less well-dressed lot looking gleeful).

Because the majority of people classify the darker-skinned less well-dressed lot as terrorists, and the light-skinned more well-dressed lot as defending themselves from terrorism. Coincidentally, more people support "self-defense" than "terrorism".

I'm not endorsing either approach, personally.

On a side note...is Hamas as an organization willing to hold talks, and uphold agreements throughout its entire ranks, if those talks were to take place?

[Strangelet]

Originally Posted by IsiliRunite

Because the majority of people classify the darker-skinned less well-dressed lot as terrorists, and the light-skinned more well-dressed lot as defending themselves from terrorism. Coincidentally, more people support "self-defense" than "terrorism".

I'm not endorsing either approach, personally.

On a side note...is Hamas as an organization willing to hold talks, and uphold agreements throughout its entire ranks, if those talks were to take place?

Will they talk? The propaganda has us buy into a story where the less well-dressed, darker skinned lot are a monolith of evil, devoid of any significant pragmatic wing. There are two kinds of extremists. Those that are pushed into that role from the lack of alternative means of survival, and those that have everything provided them, but still feel the need to whip themselves up into a frenzy of religious superiority. Which should you most fear? Which side of this conflict has more of the well fed/well dressed nut balls?


Will they commit? the propaganda has us buy into the story that agreements must be upheld through out Hamas' entire ranks before talks can be considered. There are criminals in every organization. Its a convenient ploy to continue pushing Israeli agenda at gun point because of how believable it is that some nob will still blow themselves up or launch a missle after a battery of negotiatons. Even though its just as believable that some nob will still blow themselves up or launch a rocket after a battery of bombings.

[myrrh]

Well, I don't know where to pick up on from here, since I have been out of it for the past week.

However, I would like to comment on some things that have happened while I was in London.

First off, the protesting. The groups that run the protests, like Hizb ut-Tahrir are some of the most politically minded groups around. They care nothing for what Islaam is about, only their own personal goals, which I don't even know are. I happen to be wandering through Hyde Park on Sunday, and there was something being set up by the arch. So, I went over and checked it out, and it was them setting up for their protest against the Arab governments.

I can't stand this type of garbage that they spit out. In my eyes, they are some of the biggest cowards in the world, because their leaders live in the UK and call for the overthrowing of Arab governments - which in itself is something that is absolutely not in any way, shape or form, from Islaam. They fled from the Middle East because they people don't want to hear their crap. So, no they can sit in the UK and have 'freedom of speach'. Whatever.

Two, and this is related to the above, is that the results of protesting by these misguided individuals is the destruction of property, they likes of which we saw when they marched to the Israeli Embassy on Saturday, then destroyed Starbucks and a bunch of other buildings around it.

Is this what Islaam represents? Does this do anything to promote the whole 'religion of peace' message? Does anyone think that the owner of Starbucks will be drawn closer to Islaam or further away from it due to what has happened to his shop?

Then these people wonder why they have it difficult in the West. Which brings me to an actual incident that happened to me yesterday. I went to watch the changing of the gaurd, and I was leaving I was stopped by the police for 'suspicious' activities! They said that it looked like I 'muttered' something into my iphone headset. Give me a break!!!! I can not help but to think it was that I am olive skinned and have a beard. This is because out of the thousands of people there, I was the one picked out. I am sure that others get 'randomly' searched but I didn't see it. And the reason they stopped me was under the 'terrorism' code. So it was clear that they profiled me to perhaps be a terrorist, because I was alone, with a bookbag, and talking into my phones headset. Okay, what makes me different than the thousand of other people there who were doing the same thing? Like I said, skin color and a beard. It is sad because I really enjoyed London, but this left a bad taste in my mouth.

So, onto Gaza. Now the ignorant masses of Muslims around the world are holding protests and complaining that no one is doing anything about Gaza. Where was all the outcry for the past six years over the Iraqi's being killed? Or the Afghani's? Or if we take it back a bit - Chechnia? You get the point.

These people are accusing the Arab governments for not doing anything, but really what can they do? They have no weapons, so they can't fight. Political support is not going to do anything. In fact, the scholars in Saudi don't even like Hamas because they are just another political group, that really is more in line with a terrorist organization than a political party. If they really had the people and 'Islaam' in mind, then when they won the election, why didn't they set up a Shar'iah government? Because they don't care about Islaam, they just care about political power.

While I think that it is wrong what Israel is doing, I am only a Hamas supporter because they are the legit government there. I don't care for them because look at the result of what their actions have causes worldwide. Their actions have caused terrorism to occur in various forms.