Gaza

[BeautifulBurnout]

Protests in the UK today.

Former model Bianca Jagger and singer Annie Lennox have supported the action, and have also called on American president-elect Barack Obama to speak up against the bombardment.

Ms Lennox told the BBC that both sides were "wrong" and a total ceasefire was the only sensible solution.

She said the intervention of President George W Bush, who has described Hamas's rocket attacks as an "act of terror", was not helping the situation.
She said: "The problem is, from my perspective, they are pouring petrol onto the fire.

"They have to sit down. This is a small window of opportunity just before things kick off.

"For every one person killed in Gaza, they are creating 100 suicide bombers. It's not just about Gaza, it's about all of us.

It is fair to say that Bush is a complete twat calling the Palestinian rocket fire which has killed 4 people an "act of terrorism" and seemingly-ignoring the daily bombardments which have killed 400 and injured an estimated 1000 people.

[Deckard]

And still I'm hearing: "Israel has a right to defend itself"

Like any country, of course it does. The trouble is, no-one instigating this campaign from Israel (or handing it their implicit or explicit backing from Washington or London (as always )) can possibly believe that mantra unless they are spectacularly gullible, or utterly blinded by their national/tribal allegiance.

The suggestion that this will make everyday Israelis safer is actually offensive to me. The Israeli government may as well be wilfully killing their own innocent civilians right now, for all the 'recruitment' they're going to be doing. I just cannot believe that intelligent senior decision-makers can think that this serves as an act of self defence. My sense is that this is about vengeance, about being seen by the electorate but also the wider world to be doing something, an act that serves a psychological rather than a practical need. The problem with that is that it puts bravado and pride before lives.

If it's not that, then what the hell is the thinking behind it? Do Israel and the US actually want to prolong conflict in this region or trigger some kind of wider Islamic war? That sounds like a bizarre prospect, but one that appears to make more sense from these actions than the naive reason of self defence.

Yes I'm more concerned with Israel's motives here than Hamas', since we're constantly reminded how Hamas is, unlike Israel, not a legitimate government but rather a terrorist organisation, and one that receives so much less backing and support than Israel that it's almost comedic. If my country and the US is determined to always show their backing to Israel whatever they do, and if Israel is meant to be "like one of us", then you bet I'll hold it to a higher standard, as I would my own country or any other which possesses the most power and wealth and prides itself on its democracy and so-called civilised behaviour.

[BeautifulBurnout]

Originally Posted by Deckard

The suggestion that this will make everyday Israelis safer is actually offensive to me. The Israeli government may as well be wilfully killing their own innocent civilians right now, for all the 'recruitment' they're going to be doing. I just cannot believe that intelligent senior decision-makers can think that this serves as an act of self defence. My sense is that this is about vengeance, about being seen by the electorate but also the wider world to be doing something, an act that serves a psychological rather than a practical need. The problem with that is that it puts bravado and pride before lives.

If it's not that, then what the hell is the thinking behind it? Do Israel and the US actually want to prolong conflict in this region or trigger some kind of wider Islamic war? That sounds like a bizarre prospect, but one that appears to make more sense from these actions than the naive reason of self defence.

Or could it all be about energy security?

An unexpected energy windfall on Israel's doorstep promises to resolve Israel's energy security concerns for years to come. Unfortunately for Israek, it is the Palestinian Authority that controls the licensing of these reserves. So, as Operation Summer Rains washes away the administrative and political structures in the occupied territories, has Israel decided to use Hamas as an excuse to dismantle the PA and seize its energy assets?

This article dates from 2006 - I don't know why I had never heard of this before. If it is true that the PA hold all the cards with regard to the licencing of this gas supply, then it is pretty obvious why Israel would want them out of the way. I shall do some more research and see if there is anything else I can come up with on this.

Edit: This from the Jerusalem Post in July 07:

"Both Israel and BG intend that until the PA is able to remove Hamas from power in the Gaza Strip, the money will be held in an international bank account," the source said. "Neither side wants the money to go to fund terror-related activities."
According to the plan, BG will drill for natural gas 36 kilometers off of the Gaza coast, in an area that was designated as PA territory following the Oslo Accords. The gas will then flow four km underwater in a pipeline 850 meters below the surface to an Ashkelon refinery. The field, which BG purchased in 2000 and to which Hamas now claims rightful ownership, contains 1 trillion cubic feet of natural gas worth an estimated $4 billion, with Israel set to become the sole consumer of the resources.

And this from the Torygraph:

At first sight, this appears a win-win situation. The Palestinians would have a guaranteed purchaser for their gas, one that would generate £50 million a year for 15 years in tax revenues, and provide the foundation for sustainable economic growth. And the Israelis would have a secure source of affordable gas to underwrite their economy's growth. It would also neatly show how two historic enemies could come to rely on each other for economic prosperity.
A negotiating team, led by Nigel Shaw from British Gas, the company that bought the rights to develop Gaza Marine, duly moved into an office block in a smart Israeli coastal town and prepared to draw up the various legal documents and guarantees that are standard in the international gas and oil industry.
But in spite of public statements from Ehud Olmert, the Israeli prime minister, that he supports the project, and even the intervention of Gordon Brown, then Chancellor of the Exchequer, who identified the deal as key to the development of the Palestinian economy, negotiations have not budged.

Hmmmmm....

[myrrh]

Now that ground troops have moved into Gaza, I really can't see anything good coming out of this. I just have an overwhelming bad feeling about this, as if it can be the spark that ignites a bigger fire.

U.S. President Bush laid the blame for recent fighting in Gaza squarely at the feet of Hamas, accusing militants of waging a campaign of violence against Israel with little regard for its people.

President Bush, pictured in December, says Hamas "has no intention of serving the Palestinian people."






"Since Hamas' violent takeover in the summer of 2007, living conditions have worsened for Palestinians in Gaza," Bush says in prepared remarks released Friday by the White House. "By spending its resources on rocket launchers instead of roads and schools, Hamas has demonstrated that it has no intention of serving the Palestinian people."

In a radio address to air Saturday, Bush says Hamas committed an act of terrorism when it renewed rocket attacks into Israel last month, provoking this week's airstrikes by Israel.

"In response to these attacks on their people, the leaders of Israel have launched military operations on Hamas positions in Gaza," Bush says. "As a part of their strategy, Hamas terrorists often hide within the civilian population, which puts innocent Palestinians at risk."


I like how Bush claims that Hamas tookover, even though they democractically won the fairest elections ever held in the Middle East! I see how he just glazes over the facts that he doesn't care to look at, as if they just never happened.



Maybe, just maybe, if the US had actually recognized that Hamas was the legit government and not labelled them as a terrorist group, then they would have been able to spend money on building more schools, instead of having to worry about buying rockets. Because we all know that if the US calls you a terrorist, then they have the right to roll into your country, kill your leader, dismantle your government, and prop up a government 'approved' by them.



Funny, when you look at it, Israel is actually doing what the US just did to Iraq!

[Deckard]

At least 40 people have been killed in an Israeli air strike on a United Nations-run school in the Gaza Strip, Palestinian medical sources have said.

A number of children were among those who died when the al-Fakhura school in the Jabaliya refugee camp took a direct hit, doctors at nearby hospitals said.

People inside had been taking refuge from the Israeli ground offensive.

Earlier, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) warned of a "full-blown humanitarian crisis" in Gaza.

Keep up with this "self-defence", Israel. Bound to work eventually... ok, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, maybe not next month or next year, maybe not this century... or next.... but hey, those "Made in US" bombs are bound to make you safer eventually....

To speed things along, perhaps someone should call Middle East envoy Tony Blair? He'll sort it out - won't he?

[Rog]

[quote=myrrh;107447]
Maybe, just maybe, if the US had actually recognized that Hamas was the legit government and not labelled them as a terrorist group, then they would have been able to spend money on building more schools, instead of having to worry about buying rockets. Because we all know that if the US calls you a terrorist, then they have the right to roll into your country, kill your leader, dismantle your government, and prop up a government 'approved' by them. quote]


Spot on post!

[Sean]

While it certainly seems that everyone's more than willing to pig-pile on Israel here, let's not lose sight of some of the reality that led to this conflict.

First, let me clearly state that I personally feel the breadth of Israel's current military action is over the top and counter-productive. But in a three day span alone before the attack was begun, it was even reported on Al Jazeera that there were 30-some-odd rockets fired randomly into Israel from Gaza. The 6 month truce ended, and the rocket attacks ramped up. I say "ramped up", because they never stopped to begin with.

And of course Hamas blames these rocket attacks on Israel because of the blockades Israel has imposed. And Israel puts the blame for the blockades on Hamas, and Hamas blames etc etc etc.

So while I definitely don't agree with the scope of Israel's current attacks, I simply can't jump on board with those of you who appear to be placing practically full responsibility on Israel for this conflict. If missiles were constantly dropping randomly in my neighborhood, I'd want to see some action taken to stop it too.

[BeautifulBurnout]

Sean

Of course you are right. But also the people condemning Israel are right too in their own way. The problem is, someone, somewhere, needs to find a way to end this cycle.

Bliar is getting his freedom medal next week. How about a little bit more effort in his overpaid, over-hyped but ultimately non-effective role as Peace Envoy. He needs to get away from the attitude that "we will not talk to Hamas" - Jesus, we would still be looking under dustbins for IRA bombs if that attitude had prevailed. I am stuck between and at the moment.

[Strangelet]

Originally Posted by Sean

If missiles were constantly dropping randomly in my neighborhood, I'd want to see some action taken to stop it too.

what action? Seriously, I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just curious what has been proposed as an alternative by those who don't focus on the injust asymmetry of the response?

Because the problem we're having as critics is the lack of any alternative proposed. It seems that justification to defend oneself == open season on palestinians. There's no line drawn. Whatever Israel does, including using depleted uranium shells and phosphorus, is justified carte blanche.

I think pretty much all of us, maybe not myrrh, on this pig pile have couched their dissent in a stand point of what is best for *israel* so I'm pretty much going to wave off any argument that being a critic of this barbarism is biased against israel.

Also, I understand that wars are justified, and I actually do believe that if any nation state is categorically denied action to defend itself because of possible civilian casualties on the other side, then those nation states are in real mortal danger.

So i'm pretty much going to wave off any argument that being a critic of this barbarism is misguided, hypocritical hippy daisy chaining.

here's where the problem is.

Dr. Mads Gilbert: "The statistics are clear. Among the 2,400-2,500 injured, 45 percent are women and children. And then there are also all the civilian men. So the large majority of the injured, the victims, are women, men and children civilian. Among the the killed, 25 percent of the killed are children and women, and among the children, today, it was—this morning, it was 801 children either killed or injured. 101 children had been killed.”

45% isn't a defense. its a slaughter.

[Deckard]

Originally Posted by Sean

First, let me clearly state that I personally feel the breadth of Israel's current military action is over the top and counter-productive. But in a three day span alone before the attack was begun, it was even reported on Al Jazeera that there were 30-some-odd rockets fired randomly into Israel from Gaza. The 6 month truce ended, and the rocket attacks ramped up. I say "ramped up", because they never stopped to begin with.

And of course Hamas blames these rocket attacks on Israel because of the blockades Israel has imposed.

Not to mention the Israeli assassinations which didn't stop during the ceasefire. Also when it comes to selective rewinding, I've yet to see Israel's response as to why the crossing points never fully opened to allow essential supplies freely in and out of Gaza, despite the fact that Hamas kept its side of the bargain in suspending the rocket attacks. But I don't doubt there is an answer somewhere that only begs another question - and following that chain is not the route to peace.

Originally Posted by Sean

So while I definitely don't agree with the scope of Israel's current attacks, I simply can't jump on board with those of you who appear to be placing practically full responsibility on Israel for this conflict.

Just to be clear: killing an innocent Israeli is just as bad as killing an innocent Palestinian. The point is that, by my reckoning, Israel only wields more responsibility by virtue of its astronomically more powerful position - with those advantages should come greater responsibility. It shouldn't bear "practicallly full responsibility" but certainly it should bear more responsibility than the UK or US are ever willing to attribute to it. I think that's where a sizeable chunk of the overseas anger originates.

Originally Posted by Sean

If missiles were constantly dropping randomly in my neighborhood, I'd want to see some action taken to stop it too.

Completely understandable. I don't think anyone here doubts that, and I think we all take it as read that firing rockets into civilian areas is a crime against humanity. The key point though is in your phrase "action taken". Not only is this not the action that will stop it, this is action that will greatly exascerbate it - I think you accept this anyway, but here's the crux - the reason Israel comes in for more criticism in my eyes is because:

(a) I have a hard time believing that Israel is DUMB enough not to see that this is completely counterproductive as far as "action taken" goes, or to recognize the threat posed by 3 quarters of a million young people growing up in Gaza with an inexorable hatred of those who have starved and bombed them. For me, the "self defence" reason goes straight out the window. It's not even credible.

(b) I'm starting to question how realistic (/naive) it is to believe that military action of this order is ever executed by a state as advanced as Israel purely for an emotional reason like vengeance (bearing in mind the absence of "self defence") so I don't think it's unreasonable to start asking what might really lie behind this, even if there are no immediate satisfactory answers - just as the notion of Afghanistan and Iraq as "vengeance" for 9/11 never really sat well with me. It is possible that we don't know the full story behind the actions and timing here.

I think what angers me most is that, with 500 Palestinians killed and another 2,000 wounded (at the time of writing), the news ticker tonight is still reading "Gordon Brown: Gaza has reached its darkest hour..... Obama: Gaza and Israel is a source of deep concern for me..." - like some passive commentary on a fictional soap opera. You can bet they wouldn't be so goddamned "Oh dear what a dreadful shame it all is"-passive if this was happening the other way round. We all know Hamas terrorists get condemned, and rightly so. But I feel like this murderous response by Israel is getting the greenlight from MY country - as it always does - and honestly that makes me livid.

Just what the hell is it with our three nations, the US, UK and Israel? What if we really are the world bullies?