Another one o' them smoking ban threads....

[Rog]

Originally Posted by IsiliRunite

If we adopt universal healthcare, there is no well in hell I am going to pay for smokers, fat, and out of shape people.

When you're sacrificing choice for socialize medicine is it really a surprise they're taking away your public smoking rights?

OK so what about drinkers? what about sportsmen? what about drivers?, cyclists?, skiers?, people with hi-fat diets?, people who have a genetic propensity to certain diseases, etc- all these things have a higher risk of being a burden to healthcare.......

[potatobroth]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

2) people claiming they are "allergic" to cigarette smoke... // ...it doesn't cause you to get hives, it doesn't make you break out in a rash or make your throat sore in an allergic manner. it's an irritant and it can cause harm, but you're not 'allergic' to it. if anything, you're intolerant to it, but while you're bitching about a dude 20 feet away smoking a cigarette, why don't you fuss at the dude who sits in the parallel parking space with his car idling for 30 minutes?

When I am around smokers, my throat swells up, I have trouble breathing, and I start to cough -- in much the same way I do when the pollen count is way up. So like it or not, while I may not be scientifically 'allergic' to ciggie smoke, I don't think its a stretch to say I am.

I typically don't have idling cars at the next table over or behind me at a bar. Until the NJ indoor smoking ban I did have smokers encircling me at dinner, at bars, at clubs (the worst!)

For all the bitching I see about the bans etc, I always wonder just why it isn't sinking in that maybe, just maybe smoking it bad for 'you' and that it might be prudent to finally quit? A friend of mine just quit 'for the baby' and I asked him, "so, you weren't worthy enough? had to wait for the baby did ya?"

[Sean]

Originally Posted by potatobroth

For all the bitching I see about the bans etc, I always wonder just why it isn't sinking in that maybe, just maybe smoking it bad for 'you' and that it might be prudent to finally quit? A friend of mine just quit 'for the baby' and I asked him, "so, you weren't worthy enough? had to wait for the baby did ya?"

I don't think it's a question of it "sinking in" that smoking's bad for you. Frankly, anyone who doesn't know it's bad for you in this day and age has bigger problems than the health risks of smoking pose.

The real question is what's with the glaring hypocrisy? As I wondered earlier, how many of the people on an anti-smoking crusade are obese? Just can't seem to put down that triple bacon cheeseburger and fries, hm? Not sinking in that your extra-grande sausage and cheese breakfast quesadilla might be a smidge harsh on the old cholesterol levels? Or how about the people I'm sure we all know who just aren't capable of being decent human beings until they've had their personal pot of coffee to drink every single morning? It takes that healthy bucket of caffeine to really get you off the ground, yeah?

The point here is that there are many, many things out there that are just as bad or worse for people's health than smoking, and virtually everyone regularly partakes in at least one or more of them despite knowing the risks involved. To hold smokers to so much of a higher standard than every other bad-habitted (I just made that word up) person out there is hypocritical, plain and simple.

Just something to think about next time you're drunk, or in the sun for more than 10 minutes without sunscreen, or eating fried chicken, or driving while sleepy, or sky-diving, or taking a shortcut through a bad neighborhood.....

[potatobroth]

Originally Posted by Sean

The real question is what's with the glaring hypocrisy? As I wondered earlier, how many of the people on an anti-smoking crusade are obese? Just can't seem to put down that triple bacon cheeseburger and fries, hm? Not sinking in that your extra-grande sausage and cheese breakfast quesadilla might be a smidge harsh on the old cholesterol levels? Or how about the people I'm sure we all know who just aren't capable of being decent human beings until they've had their personal pot of coffee to drink every single morning? It takes that healthy bucket of caffeine to really get you off the ground, yeah?

Not that this is a statement that needs to be qualified to be discussed but why does cigarette smoking have to be compared to anything? Isn't it universally accepted at this point that smoking cigs is in all ways bad for you and in no ways good?

Eating a cheeseburger isn't bad for you. Eating them in excess is. Can the same be said about inhaling smoke? I look at all my friends that still smoke, and it seems that none of them really factor the 'its bad for me' side of things. The few that I'm friends with are still living in the 'it won't happen to me' stage that most 14 year olds shake. If I were to ask them (and by no means do I preach at them) why they don't quit I'd get the usual response of, "I don't smoke that much." We both know that is a lie. For my friends, smoking is a constant lie to themselves. I'm sure this varies greatly between smokers, but its how I see it in my circle. I even have one friend who was in the hospital because she couldn't breathe, was diagnosed asthmatic, and still wants to smoke. She is 29. I just don't get it.

All that said, I still stand by my original statement that as long as smoking is legal, it have to be regarded as such and not discriminated against in situations where it isn't bothersome to others.

Skydiving? Did you really just write skydiving? :P

[Strangelet]

Here's a secret for you haterz. even smokers aren't fans of cigarette smoke sometimes and can be mildly put-off by someone smoking on the street around them. So really, health problems aside, its not a difference between smokers and non smokers, its a difference between people who are compelled to sanctimoniously bitch and people who aren't.

and do we want to go there? because I can start talking *a lot* of shit about the every day habits of people who don't smoke. Women who use their baby strollers as battering rams through crowded places, people who buy new SUV's drive them around with 4 dollar gas. Spitters. People who just walk out of a store and onto the sidewalk without caring to look who they run into. People who don't pick up after their pets. People who don't recycle. People who do recycle and police everyone else's recycling. part of tolerance is not so much making sure nobody does something offensive, but not being so offended yourself.

[potatobroth]

Originally Posted by Strangelet

and do we want to go there? because I can start talking *a lot* of shit about the every day habits of people who don't smoke. Women who use their baby strollers as battering rams through crowded places, people who buy new SUV's drive them around with 4 dollar gas. Spitters. People who just walk out of a store and onto the sidewalk without caring to look who they run into. People who don't pick up after their pets. People who don't recycle. People who do recycle and police everyone else's recycling. part of tolerance is not so much making sure nobody does something offensive, but not being so offended yourself.

You know, I noticed that with friends that did quit smoking. Now all of the sudden they too are put off by cigarette smoke.

As far as going there, talk all you want. None of the above makes me lose my ability to breathe properly. Sure some of the stuff above is annoying but baby strollers are rarely ever going to cause me a health problem.

[Strangelet]

Originally Posted by potatobroth

You know, I noticed that with friends that did quit smoking. Now all of the sudden they too are put off by cigarette smoke.

oh yeah, mate. you're off the hook. I'm talking about the people who find it socially offensive.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by potatobroth

Not that this is a statement that needs to be qualified to be discussed but why does cigarette smoking have to be compared to anything?

Because smoking is disproportionately singled out as the target for more and more intrusive legislation despite the fact that there are plenty of other activities that just as many people regularly partake in which are equally as unhealthy.

Originally Posted by potatobroth

Isn't it universally accepted at this point that smoking cigs is in all ways bad for you and in no ways good?

Sure. But it's legal, and it's a personal choice, just like all the other personal choices people make every day that are bad for their health.

Originally Posted by potatobroth

Eating a cheeseburger isn't bad for you. Eating them in excess is. Can the same be said about inhaling smoke?

Yes. Smoking a single cigarette is no worse for you than eating a single burger. One cigarette will not give you lung cancer just as one burger will not give you a heart attack. But the obesity epidemic that's spreading across a good portion of the planet is clearly not the result of all these people only eating the occasional burger in an otherwise healthful diet. When I refer to eating a burger, or fried chicken, or a big-ass sausage and cheese quesadilla, I'm referring to an overall unhealthy diet, as the majority of Americans and Brits tend to have.

Originally Posted by potatobroth

I look at all my friends that still smoke, and it seems that none of them really factor the 'its bad for me' side of things. The few that I'm friends with are still living in the 'it won't happen to me' stage that most 14 year olds shake. If I were to ask them (and by no means do I preach at them) why they don't quit I'd get the usual response of, "I don't smoke that much." We both know that is a lie. For my friends, smoking is a constant lie to themselves. I'm sure this varies greatly between smokers, but its how I see it in my circle. I even have one friend who was in the hospital because she couldn't breathe, was diagnosed asthmatic, and still wants to smoke. She is 29. I just don't get it.

Well this is another issue altogether. I can't speak for your friends, but I can say that I believe the "it won't happen to me" mindset is pretty common in all aspects of life. People driving with a slight buzz because causing a drunk driving accident "won't happen to me", or people having horrible diets despite the risk of heart disease because a heart attack "won't happen to me". Your friend who had respiratory problems but then went back to smoking is no different to me than an obese person starting a diet and then going right off of it. They should both be allowed to work for Sarasota county.

Originally Posted by potatobroth

Skydiving? Did you really just write skydiving? :P

I did indeed.

[BeautifulBurnout]

I think where it can be differentiated from the examples Sean gives is that, without a doubt, passive smoking can have a palpable effect on the health of people who do not, themselves, smoke but who are around cigarette smoke all the time.

The case we always think about in the UK is that of an entertainer called Roy Castle who spent a good deal of his younger life doing the jazz club circuit, and who died of lung cancer even though he was a non-smoker himself.


With most other habits or lifestyle choices, the direct effect on health is only self-inflicted. (Unless you count the people who get the shit kicked out of them on a Saturday night by a drunken yob, of course. )

I still think it is wrong to try and force people to stop smoking, if that is their choice. But I think it is right to ban it in enclosed public places, such as pubs, bars, restaurants, clubs etc. I have found it much easier to stick to my non-smoking nicotine habit since smoking has been banned in pubs here. Whereas before, after a few drinks with friends, I would be happily stealing their cigs from them, nowadays I am happy to stay in the pub while the smokers go outside in the cold and rain and feed their habit, while I continue to feed mine with the Niquitins

[Rog]

Lots of commonsense posts here tonight....pardon my grammar