U.S. Presidential Election 2008

[cacophony]

Originally Posted by Deckard

Also, as a general aside to no-one in particular, let me just make clear, in case it's not obvious, that my tendency to lapse into despair at what I see as widespread ignorance - whether it's Hillary's support, or the belief that Saddam had something to do with 9/11, or the number who believe that the world is only 8,000 years old and the Lord Jesus is their saviour - my inclination to roll my eyes at these things is never originating from a craving to elevate myself or just be a smug git. It is genuine despair that I feel. And some frustration.

goes without saying.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Deckard

Also, as a general aside to no-one in particular, let me just make clear, in case it's not obvious, that my tendency to lapse into despair at what I see as widespread ignorance - whether it's Hillary's support, or the belief that Saddam had something to do with 9/11, or the number who believe that the world is only 8,000 years old and the Lord Jesus is their saviour - my inclination to roll my eyes at these things is never originating from a craving to elevate myself or just be a smug git. It is genuine despair that I feel. And some frustration.

You smug sonofabitch.

[Troy McClure]

Since the debate is tonight, I found a drinking game for everyone to participate:

April 16th Democrat Debate Drinking Game Although, they forgot to add to have a drink if Hillary utters 'you know'. I think it was for fear of alcohol poisoning.
--Jason

[Strangelet]

Originally Posted by Troy McClure

Since the debate is tonight, I found a drinking game for everyone to participate:

April 16th Democrat Debate Drinking Game Although, they forgot to add to have a drink if Hillary utters 'you know'. I think it was for fear of alcohol poisoning.
--Jason

or the ending "for our children"

[Strangelet]

hmmph can you believe this horse shit?

45 minutes of a 90 minute debate focused on bitter-gate jeremiah wright and the weather underground? what a fucking hit job.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Strangelet

hmmph can you believe this horse shit?

45 minutes of a 90 minute debate focused on bitter-gate jeremiah wright and the weather underground? what a fucking hit job.

Well I didn't realize until I just now read it, but one of the moderators, George Stephanopoulos, was a former Clinton staffer. He "helped run Mr Clinton's 1992 election campaign and acted as his press secretary and advisor on policy and strategy before joining the ABC"

But aside from that, I think the hit-job approach may have backfired. For one, Obama consistantly steered his answers back to actual policy, while Hillary was on endless attack mode....and it culminated with Obama calling her out on her hubby's pardons of terrorists when he was President. That seemed to shut her up.

And more importantly, Hillary was backed into a corner where she finally had to admit to the world that "yes, yes, yes", Obama can beat McCain in the general election. Claiming that he couldn't win was the previous centerpiece of her argument against him to superdelegates, and more indirectly to the remaining voters. She can't use that argument anymore without being called out as a liar at a time when voters have already overwhelmingly concluded that she's not trustworthy. I'd say she shot herself in the foot with a shotgun on that one.

I think the debate ended up making Hillary look petty and negative, while Obama remained relatively steady. There was focus on Obama's controversies, but those controversies have proven through polls to not hurt him. He could afford to maintain a status quo there....although hopefully since so many people watched the debate, some have had their questions about him answered and can move on from stories about Reverend Wright and "bitterness".

[Strangelet]

I agree. And I think you are right to take solace in the points you raised if you support Obama (which I do)

But personally I think even if you were a staunch Clinton supporter, you should be frustrated by last night's venue. It was nothing short of tabloid pandering, breaking the election process down to a maury pauvich show for the first 45 minutes. And I just tried to convince myself we aren't an ideocracy!

David Brooks at the NYT says this

I understand the complaints, but I thought the questions were excellent. The journalist’s job is to make politicians uncomfortable, to explore evasions, contradictions and vulnerabilities. Almost every question tonight did that. The candidates each looked foolish at times, but that’s their own fault.
We may not like it, but issues like Jeremiah Wright, flag lapels and the Tuzla airport will be important in the fall. Remember how George H.W. Bush toured flag factories to expose Michael Dukakis. It’s legitimate to see how the candidates will respond to these sorts of symbolic issues.

There's so much objectively wrong with this statement no matter who you support. Asking Obama about his relationship with the american flag, whether or not Rev. Wright loves his country and if so, does Obama love his country more? Yes that succeeded in making Obama visibly uncomfortable. So what?

I can ask David Brooks why his mother is such a whore, and I'm sure I would succeed in making him uncomfortable too, it doesn't mean its good fucking journalism. I think people see through this. They know its only good to make someone squirm if you're asking legitimate questions about issues and policy, not through character attacks entrenched in base psychological archetypes like the american flag and unquestioning patriotism.

Also, notice that Clinton and the moderators get a blank check to basically put on their karl rove pants because that's what they expect from the general. By that logic I can go up and punch a spousal abuse victim in the face and say, you may not like it but you should expect it when you get home tonight. Sidestepping any awareness that it is this kind of media activity that's helping people win based on fear of gay marriage.

And interesting enough, George Stephano-whatever, actually appeared on both Hannity's radio show and another right wing radio show where he heard about the Weather Underground connection. So quite literally they were getting their talking points from the neo con media.

But yes I am as optimistic in the body politic. Especially how the audience started cat calling the moderaters at the end.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Strangelet

I agree. And I think you are right to take solace in the points you raised if you support Obama (which I do)

But personally I think even if you were a staunch Clinton supporter, you should be frustrated by last night's venue. It was nothing short of tabloid pandering, breaking the election process down to a maury pauvich show for the first 45 minutes. And I just tried to convince myself we aren't an ideocracy!

I do agree with you....it was, overall, a ridiculously shoddy debate in how it was presented by th eso-called "moderators". My point is just that when you look at the net outcome, I think it will ultimately work in Obama's favor. Look how he used it today. And it strikes me based on reactions I've seen online and heard around the workplace that people thought it was stupid that it took 45 minutes to get to substantive issues (they even asked about the stupid flag pin thing before getting to the economy, Iraq, or anything else real), that Hillary behaved badly, and Obama did all he could to bring the subject back to real issues.

But yes, all that being said, it was a frustratingly amateurish forum.

[Strangelet]

Originally Posted by Sean

My point is just that when you look at the net outcome, I think it will ultimately work in Obama's favor. Look how he used it today.

point well taken, and thanks for the link. I think i've spent this campaign half optimistic and half pessimistic.

[cacophony]

i wouldn't be too overconfident in obama's favor. i've talked to several undecideds today and they all felt like obama failed to give substantive answers to many of the questions. the impression he left with those still deciding is that he wasn't able to move past his usual rhetoric and show real knowledge and understanding of economic issues.

don't shoot the messenger, this is just what i've been hearing all day.