U.S. Presidential Election 2008

[Deckard]

In all fairness, I don't think he's linking it to voting patterns per se, and it wouldn't surprise me to know that misogyny has been underpinning some of the flak she's receiving.

The difficulty for people overly keen to shout 'misogyny' is that there really are a lot of reasons to criticize Clinton, and it can be extremely difficult identifying - let alone proving - where exactly any misogyny lies. Some of it is obvious - 'get back in the kitchen' kind of stuff. But the bulk of criticism of Clinton is not like this, and regardless of what may or may not lie beneath the criticism, appears completely valid when taken on its own merit.

(If someone who is prone to misogyny attacks Clinton for valid reasons, is that misogyny?)

I doubt anyone here commenting on her is doing so for misogynistic reasons.

(Well apart from Sean, that is )

The point about racism could indeed be made against people seemingly fixated on, say, the Obama/Reverend Wright controversy.

Or we could go for some accusations of reverse sexism against all those women in Clinton's so-called "core base" refusing to vote for the male candidate(s). The point here is that it's a nice easy label to throw about because the accuser doesn't have to (and often cannot) pinpoint precise examples to back up their claim.

Really, I don't say this based on any personal agenda, but I'd say the most undeniable prejudice that I've seen emerge from this election campaign has been Islamophobia.

[Strangelet]

this is just amazing.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/pol...aughs.off.pool

[cacophony]

Originally Posted by Deckard

(If someone who is prone to misogyny attacks Clinton for valid reasons, is that misogyny?)

yes. even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day.

[Strangelet]

Originally Posted by cacophony

yes. even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day.

ok right but that's just such pervasive human behavior I don't know how much its worth even talking about. Its just old fashioned psychological bias that could be pinned on anything, gender and race being just a few in a very long list.

its not news to say people tend to make the choice to attack something on emotional reasons and then look for more valid rational reasons after the fact.

I just don't for a minute believe that someone as polarizing as Clinton has any significant problem of misogyny working against her, compared to all other kinds of criticisms against her.

And honestly I think the burden is on people like Elton John to prove otherwise.

Just look at the direct relationship between education and support for obama. Its a smooth linear relationship, the more education, the more support for Obama.

Wouldn't you have to admit that if Clinton is justified in blaming rampant misogyny for her public relations that we'd see the opposite trend? that people with less education would be pro obama and people with more education would be pro Clinton? The assumption here is that misogyny diminishes through enlightenment.

Regardless I just think this back and forth is patently absurd. Here's a prime example.

Erica Jong : Misogyny, momism, and Militarism

Elton John recently expressed surprise at the misogyny of the American media as it relates to Hillary Clinton. I have been stunned by it -- especially the random physical put-downs that are everywhere. Matt Taibbi* refers to "flabby arms" in his latest Hillary obit. Who cares? I want to ask. But apparently Mr. Taibbi does. (And how would he know? Hillary is always encased in a blazer)...

Do we want to live in a country where women's brains are judged by their arm flesh and the trimness of their ankles? I don't. I am writing from Rome where the men are just as sexist as they are in America yet there is no physical mockery of female candidates. The Italian elections are on Sunday and Monday and most of the women candidates are between forty and sixty plus. Yet no one makes fun of their looks. They are not movie stars. They wear glasses and don't all have facelifts. Nobody expects them to look like Sophia Loren. And nobody mentions their physical attributes one way or another.


So what is wrong with American men? Particularly male journalists. I think it was discovered long ago and labeled "Momism" by Philip Wylie in a virulently sexist book 1942 book called Generation of Vipers. The book went through many, many printings in the forties and fifties. It apparently struck many nerves. Momism is a kind of Oedipal obsession with the bad mother -- to counter a boy's attraction to his good mother.

Wylie's book is as livid as the Malleus Malificarum -- that textbook for witch hunters. No one could hate so much without having loved. And love is the problem, of course. You cannot fuck your mother so you must revile her.

Matt Taibbi : Erica Jong Thinks I want to Do My Mother: A Response

I feel compelled to respond to an article written in part about me by emigree contributor Erica Jong. According to the eight hundred year-old sex novelist, my offhand description of Hillary Clinton's arms as "flabby" means that I'm a misogynist and a sexist who is guilty of "Momism," which she describes as an "Oedipal obsession with the bad mother -- to counter a boy's attraction to his good mother." The whole of her argument is based upon my use of that one word, "flabby" -- which she argues is evidence of my typically male tendency to fixate on the appearance of female politicians. Like other sexist men, I apparently trained my monomaniacal focus on Hillary's appearance while while ignoring the paunches, liver spots and comb-overs of male politicians.
Jong has apparently never read anything else I've written. Here is a short catalogue of some of the physical descriptions I've used in recent articles about male politicians:


RUDY GIULIANI, former presidential candidate: "Virtually neckless, all shoulders and forehead and overbite, with a hunched-over, Draculoid posture that recalls, oddly enough, George W. Bush, the vestigial stoop of a once-chubby kid who grew up hiding tittie pictures from nuns." Also: "The electoral incarnation of Tommy Lee Jones' acid-bath-surviving Two-Face character." A "bottomless pit of vengeful little-guy ambition."

MARK PENN, former chief strategist for the Clinton campaign: "Penn is the Democratic version of Karl Rove. He even looks like Rove, only he's fatter and more disgusting. Up close in a forum like this, his eyes bulge out of his fat, blood-flushed head; his neck spills out of his too-tight shirt collar; and he generally looks like Jabba the Hutt, his suit bursting at the seams, with only the bowl of snackable live toads suspended at arm's length missing from the picture."

MIKE HUCKABEE, former presidential candidate: "Huckabee, who in recent years has lost 100 pounds, has the roundish, half-deflated physique of an ex-fatty. With his button nose and never-waning smile, he looks slightly unreal, like an oversize Muppet."

TOM DELAY, former House majority leader: "DeLay moves through the aisles like some kind of balding incubus, and as he passes, Republican members instinctively turn their backs on him, not wanting to be caught in the Gorgon's gaze (or, more to the point, be threatened with the loss of a chairmanship or reelection funding)."

JAMES SENSENBRENNER, former House Judiciary Committee Chairman: "An ever-sweating, fat-fingered beast who wields his gavel in a way that makes you think he might have used one before in some other arena, perhaps to beat prostitutes to death." Also: "Your basic Fat Evil Prick, perfectly cast as a dictatorial committee chairman: He has the requisite moist-with-sweat pink neck, the dour expression, the penchant for pointless bile and vengefulness."

MITT ROMNEY, former presidential candidate: An "utter tool...a poll-chasing stuffed suit with a Max Headroom hairdo who will say (or won't say, for that matter) whatever the fuck it takes to get elected." Also: "When it comes to the satanic art of presidential campaigning, this lean, heavily moussed political athlete is a stone prodigy, a natural who glides through campaign events with the aid of some dark supernatural power - a tie-clad, sweat-resistant cross of Roy Hobbs and Rosemary's Baby."

BORIS YELTSIN, former Russian president: "A pig... A human appendage of a rotting, corrupt state, a crook who would emerge even from the hottest bath still stinking of booze, concrete and sausage."

TOM TANCREDO, former presidential candidate: "Vengeful midget."

JOHN McCAIN, Republican nominee: "On the trail, McCain looks equally pathetic -- slow-moving, soft-spoken and physically frail. With his lecturing tone and corny jokes ('Governor Schwarzenegger and I have many similar attributes'), he recalls the moralizing granddad who's not a bad egg overall but who embarrasses the fuck out of you by waiting till your late thirties to give you the birds-and-the-bees speech."
That's just from the last few years. And yet according to Jong, the reason I decided to use the term "flabby" when describing Hillary Clinton is because, deep down inside, I want to fuck my mother. "And love is the problem, of course," Jong-Freud writes. "You cannot fuck your mother so you must revile her."
I mean, wow. And I thought I was a hack.


Sincerely,


Matt Taibbi

[Sean]

You bring up the exact point I wanted to make, Strangelet. The physical appearance of candidates has been an issue, and played a role in campaign successes, ever since the 1960 Kennedy/Nixon race, when the first ever televised debate was aired. I won't deny that there is clearly some misogyny involved for some people regarding Hillary, just as there is undoubtedly racism playing a part in some dislike of Obama. But Where Elton John is concerned, I think he's way off base. If you look back, he also railed on the US for being racist in 2004 because some black competitors on American Idol were kicked off the show. Nevermind that the winner that year, and the year before incidentally, were both black....Elton John basically just assumes the worst regardless of the facts surrounding the case at hand. Like the fact that Hillary is running a horrible, dirty, dishonest, disorganized, inconsistant, divisive campaign.

[cacophony]

my point wasn't to make an argument for wholesale misogyny as the reason hillary isn't sweeping the polls, strangelet. i answered a question.

Originally Posted by Sean

I won't deny that there is clearly some misogyny involved for some people regarding Hillary, just as there is undoubtedly racism playing a part in some dislike of Obama.

bingo. yet we're more outraged by the racism against obama than we are about the misogyny against hillary. i guess we'd only be truly offended if we liked her.

all i've ever asked is that we acknowledge that the sexism exists, that it is just as real as the racism issue. but somehow that makes all of the men on this forum chase their tails in hysterical offense.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Strangelet

this is just amazing.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/pol...aughs.off.pool

I read about this on CNN's website, and read some comments after that I found typically stunning. Most of the comments were critical of her, but here are some of the ones in defense of her:

Jenn April 10th, 2008 8:18 pm ET
Such a ridiculous question. Hillary you are the strongest candidate. We need you in the White House!

Hillary '08.

Black Man for Hillary April 10th, 2008 8:20 pm ET
When Obama laughs off the "silly" questions about his NAFTA snafu, Rev. Wright, Rezko, primaries in FL and MI, people think he's being "oh so witty."

Bill Clinton gives speeches for money. Were his speeches about Hillary wanting a free trade agreement with Columbia? NO.

gary April 10th, 2008 8:28 pm ET
YOU GO HRC. YOU ARE THE ONLY DEM. CANIDATE THAT HAS THEIR OWN MIND. YOU HAVE BEEN THERE FOR US THROUGH THE YRS. O.B. HASNT DONE ANYTHING FOR THIS COUNTRY,BUT THE YOUNG ARE SO TWISTED FROM HIS CON MAN WAYS ,THEY HAVE NO REALITY ABOUT OUR COUNTRY.THIS COUNTRY WILL FALL IF O.B. EVER GOT ELECTED OFFICE. IT WOULD BE WHAT THE NAIVE O.B. SUPPORTERS WILL DESERVE. O.B. SUPPORTERS ARE THE WORST HATERS. THAT IS ONE CHANGE O.B. HAS BROUGHT TO THIS RACE.

Xavier April 10th, 2008 8:35 pm ET
Here we go again,
the media digging up something that happened in 2005.
Hillary Clinton's position is clear, she is against a Columbian trade agreement at this time.
By having strong position on this topic, she is showing that she is independant of Bill. This is her campaign, and her supporter's campaign. Lets ask the questions that do matter: Iraq, the Economy, rising student loans, and many more.

Unlike the silence of the other candidates, Hillary Clinton continues to voice her strong opinions on the Economy, Health Care, Iraq, and "free" trade, even if they aren't the easiest to tackle. She is a candidate with clear views, and a clear stance on what she wants to get done for the US.

Xavier, California

Spider April 10th, 2008 8:38 pm ET
No obomination

Hillary '08

mark ordiz April 10th, 2008 11:32 pm ET
stop rattling you… Obamaniacs… COME APRIL 22, PENN FOLKS WOULDNT FORGET THE SCARE OF YOUR LONG TIME PASTOR… RADICAL RELIGIOUS EXTRIMISM TAMED BY YOUR RACE SERMON… YOULL LIVE BY ITS HORRORS. AND FOR US HILLARY SUPPORTERS WE WILL STOP IT.

HILLARY-EDWARDS 08!





So my conclusion at this point is that Hillary supporters have to be either willfully ignoring the glaring faults of their candidate, or flat out ignorant.

[Strangelet]

Originally Posted by cacophony

my point wasn't to make an argument for wholesale misogyny as the reason hillary isn't sweeping the polls, strangelet. i answered a question.

Actually I didn't assume you were completely, but a lot of people in the news are right now because of the comments by clinton surrogates and now Sir Elton. Not to mention the fact that activity on these forums have included accusations that some of us tail chasing men have unresolved gender issues as the basis for our loathing of Hillary.

Originally Posted by cacophony

all i've ever asked is that we acknowledge that the sexism exists, that it is just as real as the racism issue. but somehow that makes all of the men on this forum chase their tails in hysterical offense.

I've never not acknowledged sexism exists and I think people have a right to be frustrated when they take careful crafting of arguments and pwn a politician's moral fiber only to be labeled as frenzied misogynists.

Seriously I think we're going in circles.

[Rog]

well i think you,re all tooooooooooo serioussssss

[Sean]

Originally Posted by cacophony

bingo. yet we're more outraged by the racism against obama than we are about the misogyny against hillary. i guess we'd only be truly offended if we liked her.

I can't decide where I stand on this. Clearly the racism has gotten more attention than the misogyny, but I wonder if that's actually because the racism has been at least a bit more rampant or prevelant? Or maybe not.

Originally Posted by cacophony

all i've ever asked is that we acknowledge that the sexism exists, that it is just as real as the racism issue. but somehow that makes all of the men on this forum chase their tails in hysterical offense.

I think the only point that the men here are really trying to make is that while sexism does exist, it seems like the percentage of men who would fall into the "sexist" category is pretty low here in the world forum, and in the dirty forums overall. So we're basically on the same page.