Another one o' them smoking ban threads....

[Sean]

The Los Angeles City Council is voting today on a moratorium on new fast-food restaurants in South L.A.. I think it's stupid. This is where I take up IsiliRunite's philosophy on personal responsibility. To explain that better, here's the last paragraph in the linked article:

Rebeca Torres, a South Los Angeles mother of four, said she would welcome more dining choices, even if she had to pay a little more. "They should have better things for children," she said. "This fast-food really fattens them up."

I guess Rebecca doesn't realize that it's even cheaper to grab some healthy ingredients from the grocery store to make a decent meal for the kids. And don't tell me about how she may not have the time to go to the store and prepare meals at home - buy some milk and a loaf of whole-grain bread, some sliced turkey, lettuce, tomato, whatever, and make a decent freakin' sandwich for them. It's fast, easy and cheap, and a hell of a lot healthier than a burger, fries, chicken nuggets and soda.

And if demand is lowered through this increased personal responsibility, then the number of fast food restaurants in the area will drop as a result. That, in my opinion, is the only way to affect lasting change where this issue is concerned.

Another favorite quote from the article:

"What's next — security guards at the door saying 'You're overweight, you can't have a cheeseburger'?" Casana said.

[dubman]

I guess Rebecca doesn't realize that it's even cheaper to grab some healthy ingredients from the grocery store

it... really isnt. i spend on average a little over $10 a day on food ($350 a month) if i go shopping. at mcdonalds i can get two cheeseburgers and a small fry for three.
milk - $3.50
loaf o bread - $4.00
packet o sliced turkey - $3-$5
packet o cheese - $3-$5
lettuce - $2-$3
tomato - $2-$3

all told we're looking at an average of 20 dollars for less than a weeks worth of food if you have kids.

you can make 20 go a long way at mcdonalds for kids though, especially if you're poor. it's become a real problem for a doctor i know working in lower income houeholds. she constantly has to try and convince them that they need to stop them from going to mcdonalds only to get told that it's cheap, it's what they like, and it all gets done right there. it takes less time, money, and headache than going to the store and buying what they shouldnt and spending more than what they have.
mind, i'm taking about poor families and not parents who simply spoil their kids, but that's who they're targeting, especually in LA. you'll find a much higher concentration of mcdonalds and fast food in depressed neighborhoods.
so i'm not going to stand up for fast food's right to exist. i indulged yesterday and it was awesome but theres no question that it's nothing but bad for you. legislating it out of an entire city is out of hand (like city councils and governing bodies tend to go) but i'm not going to get pissy on their behalf. they make their money letting people make the "its our responsibility" agument for them while being the most openly detrimental thing you cn eat for a meal. if thats how it's supposed to work then legalize a whole mess of other hideousness while youre at it. addiction, heart disease, overdosing.. let's all be able pick our poison.

OR, we can do the middle ground that'll sucker-punch all concerned. i quite liked that idea of putting up the nutrition facts in plain display next to the items concerned. not the whole shebang, but the juicy parts: calories and fats. fast food was afraid of that and justly so. at this point in my life whenever i do it it's either an acceptable lapse because i occasionally fckn crave it or part of a looong stretch of eating absolute shit. seeing the info reminds me and a lot of other people that the extreme content of fat and calories is not just a lapse, but a full on attack on your body, and would make half the people that crawl in on a craving think twice. if it's the people's responsibility, then people should not just be let-known but be made painfully aware of, and i like it that it'd be right as they're ordering it.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by dubman

it... really isnt. i spend on average a little over $10 a day on food ($350 a month) if i go shopping. at mcdonalds i can get two cheeseburgers and a small fry for three.
milk - $3.50
loaf o bread - $4.00
packet o sliced turkey - $3-$5
packet o cheese - $3-$5
lettuce - $2-$3
tomato - $2-$3

all told we're looking at an average of 20 dollars for less than a weeks worth of food if you have kids.

There are like 20 slices of bread in a loaf. So we're talking milk and 10 sandwiches for $20 (going by your numbers). That's $2 per sandwich with a glass of milk. And this lady complains that fast food places are fattening up her kids and that she'd pay more for a good restaurant, so even if groceries do cost a smidge more, she has no excuse. She shouldn't blame fast food places when it's her own fault for choosing to frequent those fast food places.

Originally Posted by dubman

you can make 20 go a long way at mcdonalds for kids though, especially if you're poor. it's become a real problem for a doctor i know working in lower income houeholds. she constantly has to try and convince them that they need to stop them from going to mcdonalds only to get told that it's cheap, it's what they like, and it all gets done right there. it takes less time, money, and headache than going to the store and buying what they shouldnt and spending more than what they have.
mind, i'm taking about poor families and not parents who simply spoil their kids, but that's who they're targeting, especually in LA. you'll find a much higher concentration of mcdonalds and fast food in depressed neighborhoods.

This is all straight-up cop-outs in my book. "It's cheap"? So are some basic, healthy ingredients at the grocery store, or Costco. "It's what they like"? Things may have changed since I was a kid, but I don't recall having the final say in what I ate as a child. My parents determined my diet, and that typically included things like eating the vegetables I hated, as it should be. "It all gets done right there"? Well that's just plain laziness. One trip to the grocery store, and you can throw together your cheap-ass sandwiches without even having to leave the house for a few days.

Originally Posted by dubman

so i'm not going to stand up for fast food's right to exist. i indulged yesterday and it was awesome but theres no question that it's nothing but bad for you. legislating it out of an entire city is out of hand (like city councils and governing bodies tend to go) but i'm not going to get pissy on their behalf. they make their money letting people make the "its our responsibility" agument for them while being the most openly detrimental thing you cn eat for a meal. if thats how it's supposed to work then legalize a whole mess of other hideousness while youre at it. addiction, heart disease, overdosing.. let's all be able pick our poison.

Hell, well then why stop there? Sure, fast food is largely bad for you, but why not scour the menus of all restaurants and ban any items that are unhealthy? I mean, I can go down the street to Paco's Tacos right now and get myself a Chile Relleno - a nice, spicy pepper stuffed with cheese, then breaded and deep fried, served with a side of refried beans covered in melted queso. And that's not the only heavy, greasy, wildly unhealthy thing on the menu by a long shot. Is any of that healthier than a McDonald's cheeseburger? I doubt it. Will these dishes be banned at any of the countless Mexican restaurants in south LA? Not without a huge uproar. So when they get rid of the fast food chains and dumb-ass Rebeca takes her kids to Paco's or somewhere just like it, am I supposed to believe that she'll suddenly start exercising stellar judgement in what she allows her kids to order from the menu? I doubt she will because she doesn't hold herself responsible for what her kids eat - she says that's the fault of fast food chains! And what about Mom and Pop burger joints? Or restaurants like Roscoe's Chicken and Waffles with a menu that's mainly made up of fried chicken, waffles, and gravy in various combinations? Or Italian restaurants that have tons of heavy pasta dishes that add to the obesity epidemic? Or Aunt Kizzy's Back Porch? Or any of a countless number of other sit-down restaurants that have equally unhealthy menus? (Holy crap....I've just listed some of my favorite places to eat...)

Oh - and for the record, I love Paco's. I'm actually wearing my Paco's t-shirt right now. But when I go there, guess what? I actually make a choice to skip the Chile Relleno, instead usually opting for the Albondigas soup that's mostly vegetables, or the fajitas that are basically just seasoned meat, peppers, onions and tomatoes. On occasion though, I'll get that stuffed and fried sum-bitch, and that's a choice I want to continue being able to make.

Originally Posted by dubman

OR, we can do the middle ground that'll sucker-punch all concerned. i quite liked that idea of putting up the nutrition facts in plain display next to the items concerned. not the whole shebang, but the juicy parts: calories and fats. fast food was afraid of that and justly so. at this point in my life whenever i do it it's either an acceptable lapse because i occasionally fckn crave it or part of a looong stretch of eating absolute shit. seeing the info reminds me and a lot of other people that the extreme content of fat and calories is not just a lapse, but a full on attack on your body, and would make half the people that crawl in on a craving think twice. if it's the people's responsibility, then people should not just be let-known but be made painfully aware of, and i like it that it'd be right as they're ordering it.

Now I'm all for this. Inform people and let them make their own choices. It's like the old "give a man a fish" proverb. Instead of saying “give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime”, I'm saying "take away a man's fast food; you might have made his diet healthier for today. Teach a man to be aware of what he eats; and you have definitely made his diet healthier for a lifetime".

Inform me, don't coerce me.

And by the way, did you feel the earthquake at all where you are?

[IsiliRunite]

Fruits, vegetables, breads, and deli meats are ridiculously cheap at grocery stores if you are used to spending money at restaurants. Dairy will always be expensive, but you don't want to consume that much of it any ways.

[Sean]

The moratorium passed unanimously. They say that it's:

...a bid to attract restaurants that offer healthier food choices to residents in a 32-square-mile area of South Los Angeles.

Councilwoman Jan Perry says residents at five public meetings expressed concern with the proliferation of fast-food outlets in the community plagued by above-average rates of obesity.

Nearly three-quarters of the restaurants in South L.A. are fast-food outlets. That's a higher percentage than other parts of the city but the restaurant industry says the moratorium won't help bring in alternatives.

[Deckard]

You know that quake you had today in LA? That was God registering his vote. Against.

(Obviously, being the bringer of free will)

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Always the minority, I guess, but I'm glad it went through.

[dubman]

Originally Posted by Sean

There are like 20 slices of bread in a loaf. So we're talking milk and 10 sandwiches for $20 (going by your numbers). That's $2 per sandwich with a glass of milk. And this lady complains that fast food places are fattening up her kids and that she'd pay more for a good restaurant, so even if groceries do cost a smidge more, she has no excuse. She shouldn't blame fast food places when it's her own fault for choosing to frequent those fast food places.

This is all straight-up cop-outs in my book. "It's cheap"? So are some basic, healthy ingredients at the grocery store, or Costco. "It's what they like"? Things may have changed since I was a kid, but I don't recall having the final say in what I ate as a child. My parents determined my diet, and that typically included things like eating the vegetables I hated, as it should be. "It all gets done right there"? Well that's just plain laziness. One trip to the grocery store, and you can throw together your cheap-ass sandwiches without even having to leave the house for a few days.

Hell, well then why stop there? Sure, fast food is largely bad for you, but why not scour the menus of all restaurants and ban any items that are unhealthy? I mean, I can go down the street to Paco's Tacos right now and get myself a Chile Relleno - a nice, spicy pepper stuffed with cheese, then breaded and deep fried, served with a side of refried beans covered in melted queso. And that's not the only heavy, greasy, wildly unhealthy thing on the menu by a long shot. Is any of that healthier than a McDonald's cheeseburger? I doubt it. Will these dishes be banned at any of the countless Mexican restaurants in south LA? Not without a huge uproar. So when they get rid of the fast food chains and dumb-ass Rebeca takes her kids to Paco's or somewhere just like it, am I supposed to believe that she'll suddenly start exercising stellar judgement in what she allows her kids to order from the menu? I doubt she will because she doesn't hold herself responsible for what her kids eat - she says that's the fault of fast food chains! And what about Mom and Pop burger joints? Or restaurants like Roscoe's Chicken and Waffles with a menu that's mainly made up of fried chicken, waffles, and gravy in various combinations? Or Italian restaurants that have tons of heavy pasta dishes that add to the obesity epidemic? Or Aunt Kizzy's Back Porch? Or any of a countless number of other sit-down restaurants that have equally unhealthy menus? (Holy crap....I've just listed some of my favorite places to eat...)

you're seeing all of this snowball, and while, imo, thats a distant but possible scenario, i dont think it would extend past multi-billion dollar corporations who make their profits off of arguments like this.
but i mean, in the big concept, you're right. people/parents/the public at large are lazy. and laziness is no excuse to hold their hand and take away their sweets.
i'm just saying that, at the same time, i have no problem with trolling a corporation that makes profits by feeding shit to people, so logical arguments aside, i'm not going to feel much pity at all if LA goes off the deep end (like they do) and enact over-the-top stuff like this. mcdonalds and fast food are getting screwed, and thats a fun way to go.
but since that *direction* could be more topsy turvy than is comfortable for many, it's best to find a way without potentially scary precedent that agitates the hell out of them at the same time, and i think not just available information, but *requiring* clear and unavoidable information about the product is a fun an effective way of doing that too.
because i think much of that buying is an impulse. a quick fix and something easy to give the kids that you dont have to prepare. as much as we want to be logical and ascribe laziness, poor choices, or otherwise being a bad parent, being a mother of four tends to create the desire to lessen any possible hassle you may have. now, it sounds like her priorities may be off, because nutrition is a tad more important rather than finding a way to make em happy/keep em quiet. but that impuse is completely understandable when you're pulling your hair out about the mess of other things they need.
which, again, would make an unavoidable reminder of what youre pumping into them just that much more effective.

i woke up at around 11:30 (talk about lazy), so i didnt know there was an earthquake until i read your post earlier today.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26093683/

Was waiting for Sean to moan about this.

I'm not moaning, I kind of like the idea. Just think of the the learning experience kids will get adding up numbers.

[dubman]

THATS WHAT IM TALKIN ABOUT

yesssss