Underworld rejected from ProgArchives

[bryantm3]

Because "progressive they are but progressive rock they are not."

Gee, that makes a whole lot of sense, especially since Brian Eno and Tangerine Dream both hold spots on that website.

[dirty050505]

Fuck 'em, who cares about genres anyway, they're just pigeonholes. UW's sound is way too diverse for such 'labels'.

[bryantm3]

yeah, exactly. i told them it was their loss, which it is. the thing is, underworld is so progressive, that the prog fans don't even want to admit that bands like marillion & spock's beard are just rehashing real progressive music that came out in the 70s, and the real progressive bands now are like underworld. that is the meaning of progressive music: treading new ground in music. The Beatles did it in the 60s, Bands like Yes & Brand X did it in the 70s, and bands like Underworld & Orbital are doing it now. These bands are the Beetovens and Brahms of our times- no one will remember some of the most popular bands of our times in 100 years- they'll remember the musicians who truly stretched the boundaries of music as we know it, and caused us to think.

[dubman]

i never understood how underworld were actually prog. maybe at he very beginning, but those days seem to be behind them, and i really dont get the prog feel from them these days.

then again, i never really understood what that term carried, except that about every band that carried that genre to their name except for underworld just about instantly annoyed me. prog house is patchy, prog rock is painful, prog anything just seems to focus on "brilliant" layering rather than something with teeth or funk or anything that doesnt stink of over-deliberated wankery.

which is why i'm a little suspect whether they're prog or not.

and i know there's scarcely a point in saying this, but in contrast to bryants opinion (yes are not beethoven, and i dont know what you mean by stretching boundaries or "making us think." think what??), i think the world of music and everything relevant in it left underworld behind since after STITI days. i still think they're brilliant, and i love what they're doing now, but as far as being relevant to anyone but us fans, it's not happening. everyone who cares to know knows what they do, and they havent really surprised anyone since then, i dont think... maybe with beaucoup fish, but not really.

so yeah, they may be doing some things that are new, and we may love (or not) how what is incredibly familiar to us is getting changed up and thrown through their constantly evolving process, but it is their unique process, and everyone else who has wanted to has seriously moved on.

[TheRev]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

The Beatles did it in the 60s, Bands like Yes & Brand X did it in the 70s, and bands like Underworld & Orbital did it in the 90s.

More accurate like that methinks.....

Because Orbital is no longer. Finito, done, and there last few albums were just rehashings of the same formulas from the brown album. Doesn't mean they weren't brilliant pieces of music, but groundbreaking...not so much.

Same story with Underworld, which was covered by someone else's posts.

I'm still waiting to hear who in the 00's are the groundbreakers...certainly hasn't been in the electronic realm.

[34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j]

Honestly I just don't think that Underworld belongs on that list. Now I realize that the list does get stretched a lot...for example I don't know why the YMO are on it...but "progressive electronic" isn't really a genre is it? And if it is, would Underworld even be in it? I see a lot of the Warp artists (Aphex Twin, Squarepusher, even Venetian Snares as awful as he can be) as being more progressive than Underworld, who I'd classify as simply electronic or house music. Even Orbital is more progressive (especially during the Snivilisation/In Sides period, including that 20+ minute version of "The Box") really. I don't think just because it's "music that makes you think" means it should be labeled as such. A band like They Might Be Giants, XTC, or Talking Heads does make me think and do tread (somewhat) new grounds in music, but you'd get laughed off the internet calling them progressive.

[smack416]

Funny. I wouldn't have equated the two, but a lot of this does seem to relate to Underworld, though I'm finding their last few years of material a little less complex than what is described here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock

As someone who has listened to far too much Yes and Rush, the only popular progressive act I can think of right now is Tool. Unless we want to include James Holden in the mix. :-P

Then there's the whole "post-rock" thing. I suppose Godspeed You! Black Emporer and Thee Silver Mt Zion Memorial Orchestra and Tra-la-la Band & Choir would also qualify as progressive, etc.

But I don't believe that "progressive" has ever meant new as it relates to music. ie, "the term "progressive" typically refers to the structure of a track which occur incrementally."

Anyway, as for ProgArchives, are they daft? What is the purpose of their "Progressive Electronic" section?

[smack416]

Yeah. I also forgot about emo bands. Then again, shouldn't we all.

[holden]

Originally Posted by smack416

But I don't believe that "progressive" has ever meant new as it relates to music. ie, "the term "progressive" typically refers to the structure of a track which occur incrementally."

Oh, but it did! Problem is, there are at least two "progressive" prefixes- that which is usually applied to the genre (the prog-rock label), as indicative of experimental music or that which carries sophistication and style not usually found in mainstream rock, and then there is the "progressive" you're describing, smack416, for "progressive trance", "progressive house", etc, that's specific to a song structure.

I'd propose we forget the labels and connotations of the word Prog. That gets us into arguments about genres and comparisons to other bands.

Question is simple: did Underworld's music make an impact on the musical landscape? Were they a step ahead of the rest? I'd argue that the certainly were in the Dubno/STITI era and are making moves in this experimental direction again. If you aren't standing still, you are progressing. Simple as that

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by smack416

Funny. I wouldn't have equated the two, but a lot of this does seem to relate to Underworld, though I'm finding their last few years of material a little less complex than what is described here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock

As someone who has listened to far too much Yes and Rush, the only popular progressive act I can think of right now is Tool. Unless we want to include James Holden in the mix. :-P

Then there's the whole "post-rock" thing. I suppose Godspeed You! Black Emporer and Thee Silver Mt Zion Memorial Orchestra and Tra-la-la Band & Choir would also qualify as progressive, etc.

But I don't believe that "progressive" has ever meant new as it relates to music. ie, "the term "progressive" typically refers to the structure of a track which occur incrementally."

Anyway, as for ProgArchives, are they daft? What is the purpose of their "Progressive Electronic" section?

yeah, my post in their forums pretty much laid it out for them:



Well, it is techno, but it's also progressive, similar to Progressive Jazz (ie: Brand X). You can't say that Brand X is rock, but you can say it's prog. In a similar way, you can't really say Underworld is rock, but you can say it's prog.

I would say that they meet the requirements for prog:

1. Long compositions, sometimes running over 20 minutes, with intricate melodies and harmonies that require repeated listening to grasp. These are often described as epics and are the genre's clearest nod to classical music. An early example is the 23-minute "Echoes" by Pink Floyd. Other famous examples include Jethro Tull's "Thick as a Brick" (43 minutes), Yes' "Close to the Edge" (18 minutes) and Genesis' "Supper's Ready" (23 minutes). More recent extreme examples are the 60-minute "Light of Day, Day of Darkness" by Green Carnation and "Garden of Dreams" by The Flower Kings.
check

2. Lyrics that convey intricate and sometimes impenetrable narratives, covering such themes as science fiction, fantasy, history, religion, war, love, and madness. Many early 1970s progressive rock bands (especially German ones) featured lyrics concerned with left-wing politics and social issues. no check

3. Concept albums, in which a theme or storyline is explored throughout an entire album in a manner similar to a film or a play. In the days of vinyl, these were usually two-record sets with strikingly designed gatefold sleeves. Famous examples include The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway by Genesis, Tales from Topographic Oceans by Yes, 2112 by Rush, Dark Side of the Moon and The Wall by Pink Floyd, and the more recent Metropolis Part II: Scenes from a Memory by Dream Theater and Snow by Spock's Beard. Aqualung, perhaps the best-known record by Jethro Tull, is often regarded as a concept album due to its recurring themes, but songwriter Ian Anderson has always claimed that the album is just "a bunch of songs".
check

4. Unusual vocal styles and use of multi-part vocal harmonies. See Magma, Robert Wyatt, and Gentle Giant. check

5. Prominent use of electronic instrumentation — particularly keyboard instruments such as the organ, piano, Mellotron, and Moog synthesizer, in addition to the usual rock combination of electric guitar, bass and drums.
check

6. Use of unusual time signatures, scales, or tunings. Many pieces use multiple time signatures and/or tempi, sometimes concurrently. Solo passages for virtually every instrument, designed to showcase the virtuosity of the player. This is the sort of thing that contributed to the fame of such performers as keyboardist Rick Wakeman and drummer Neil Peart.
check- there are keyboard/guitar/electronic choir solos (don't believe it's mellotron but not sure)

7. Inclusion of classical pieces on albums. For example, Yes start their concerts with a taped extract of Stravinsky's Firebird suite, and Emerson Lake and Palmer have performed arrangements of pieces by Copland, Bartók, Moussorgsky, Prokofiev, Janacek, Alberto Ginastera, and often feature quotes from J. S. Bach in lead breaks. Jethro Tull recorded a famous cover of J. S. Bach's "Bouree", in which they turned the classical piece into a "sleazy jazzy night-club song", according to Ian Anderson. Marillion started concerts with Rossini's La Gazza Ladra (The Thieving Magpie). Symphony X has included parts by, or inspired by, Beethoven, Holst and Mozart.
no check

8. An aesthetic linking the music with visual art, a trend started by The Beatles with Sgt. Pepper's and enthusiastically embraced during the prog heyday. Some bands became as well-known for the art direction of their albums as for their sound, with the "look" integrated into the band's overall musical identity. This led to fame for particular artists and design studios, most notably Roger Dean, whose paintings and logo design for Yes are so essential to the band's identity they could be said to serve the same function as corporate branding. Hipgnosis became equally famous for their unusual sleeves for Pink Floyd, often featuring experimental photography quite innovative for the time (two men shaking hands, one of whom is in flames, on the cover of Wish You Were Here). H.R. Giger's painting for Emerson Lake and Palmer's Brain Salad Surgery is one of the most famous album sleeves ever produced.
check- they intricately design their album covers to match the albums with a design collective called tomato, of which they are prominent members

9. A piece that is subdivided into movements in the manner of a classical suite. Examples are the four-part "Close to the Edge" by Yes, six-part "Hemispheres" by Rush, and the seven-part "A Change of Seasons" by Dream Theater. All of TransAtlantic's epics are multipart. check- juanita - kiteless - to dream of love


10. A piece that is composed of a patchwork of musical themes that could conceivably stand as individual songs, but together serve to relate a complete narrative through music. Examples are "Supper's Ready" on Genesis' Foxtrot (the "Willow Farm" section of which was played as a single), "A Day in the Life" on Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band by The Beatles, Jethro Tull's Aqualung from the album of the same name, and "The Gates of Delirium" on Yes's album Relayer (from which the single "Soon" was taken).
check- the second half of 'mmm skyscraper i love you' could stand as a song on its own

11. A piece that allows the development of musical ideas via progressions or variations in the manner of a bolero or a canon. "King Kong" on Frank Zappa's Uncle Meat is an example.
not sure what this means, unless it means that they make music that doesn't sound like anything made before them, which they do. i won't count this one.


that's 8/10 requirements met (9/11 if you count the last one), and some bands on this site meet less of those. frankly, i'm not sure how you could argue that it's not prog. that's y'all's definition, by the way.


by the way, 2 and 3 are disputable.