abortion: reducing abortions and retaining women's rights.

[stimpee]

I dont see any argument in this at all. Its a womans body and its her foetus. Its no-one else's business.

The sooner hypocrites like Rick Santorum stop making it the major issue it isnt, the better. http://oursilverribbon.org/blog/?p=188

[bryantm3]

you don't believe that an unborn child retains any rights?

[Strangelet]

i honestly don't think it would be the end of the world if states made their own abortion laws, mainly because it would ultimately come to the same state of affairs as we have now. Look, abortions are here to stay. They aren't going anywhere. If people started with that, they might be able to combine perspectives and come to a more humane system for everyone. You're just treading on seriously emotionally charged territory with this stuff so its really hard to have a practical conversation.

[Strangelet]

incidentally abortion would never be outlawed in Utah. Mormons are pretty pragmatic about it. They don't like it, but they know its a necessary evil that must be available for people who, between themselves and their own conscience, decide they need to do it.

I see a lot of wisdom in that, keeping it personal? you know?

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Oh where is cacaphony when I need her to put you sons of bitches in your places?

[bryantm3]

oh yeah, i remember that.

this ultimately isn't about whether an unborn child is alive or not, at least in this particular debate— i'm trying to come up with a practical solution of how to reduce abortions without entirely removing the option and thereby curbing women's rights. bottom line, nobody LIKES abortions. it's a women's rights/privacy issue. if you can come up with a way to protect those rights and reduce abortions you come up with a good compromise— this is my idea.

[Strangelet]

I get it, it makes sense what you're doing, but i don't think making it more inconvenient is going to do anything to stop it. If you can't have/don't want a child, there's nothing more inconvenient than 9 months of pregnancy, delivery and the years of responsibility,whether you live up to it or not, that follows.

And maybe I'm wrong but that's the basis of your concept: not making it illegal, but more inconvenient. That's only going to piss people off, and may be send a few moms to be in a back alley with a coat hanger and a bottle of vodka for anesthetic. You know, what they did before Roe V Wade.

Keep it legal, everywhere. Now what?

[stimpee]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

you don't believe that an unborn child retains any rights?

legally, a child doesnt have "rights" until its born and breathing. Before 24 weeks a woman can do what she wants. And in fact, most abortions are done in the first few weeks. Very few happen after that. 2nd trimester is 15-24 weeks. From what i've read, only 1.5% of USA abortions happen after 20 weeks. And most of those are for life/death/medical reasons rather than for spiritual/political/other reasons.

If a womans waters break the baby is a certainty to die after 20 weeks, its not gonna "avert death" or cause “serious physical impairment of a major bodily function” of the pregnant woman to proceed with an abortion, but its gonna cause infection and trauma. Mental trauma of being legally compelled to give birth to a dead or dying baby is hard enough without making it illegal.

Great article in the Times about abortion after 20 weeks: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/27/us...n.html?_r=1&hp

[34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

you don't believe that an unborn child retains any rights?

"You're not a human being until you're in my phonebook" - Bill Hicks

I personally find abortion disgusting and morally reprehensible, but our current laws allow for plenty of things that fit that description, and I hate laws that legislate morality. The punishment is the crime!

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j

"You're not a human being until you're in my phonebook" - Bill Hicks

I personally find abortion disgusting and morally reprehensible, but our current laws allow for plenty of things that fit that description, and I hate laws that legislate morality. The punishment is the crime!

you see, the thing is, where do you draw the line? obviously you wouldn't legalize manslaughter but i think abortion is pretty much the same. the thing is, is that you have two lives in the balance, and obviously the one that is a "complete life" (the mother) should be valued over the child in life or death situations. but if it isn't a life or death situation, what is the point in mandating that every state allow this to go on?