Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history

[human151]

So it seems we are at an impasse.

You would be perfectly fine with the U.K., and Europe as a whole, one day emulating a middle eastern country. THis will happen, whether it takes 100 years or 300 is irrelevant.

I believe the people of Europe want to keep their cultural identity. Unfortunately, the people really have no say in the matter. The governments will do whatever they want.

Do you really think that most pakistani immigrants to England, for example, consider themselves British? Or, do they still consider themselves Pakistani?

If I were to move to Japan, and thought it would be for the rest of my life, I would consider myself Japanese because it was my new country. I would then begin to adapt to their culture. I would NEVER expect the culture to adapt to me.

I'll end my participation in this thread with this quote from a Spanish Language newspaper in Geargia, USA. Apparently, most hispanic immigrants do not consider themselves to be "Americans". This can probably be applied to most classes of immigrants.

"Americans don't read our paper because they can't read Spanish. They don't read our news, our editorials and the opinion of the community. But if they see a picture, they'll get it,"

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/01/...ex.html?hpt=T2

ha, another one of my right wing news sources, eh?

[Deckard]

Originally Posted by human151

So it seems we are at an impasse.

It would seem so, given statements like this...

Originally Posted by human151

You would be perfectly fine with the U.K., and Europe as a whole, one day emulating a middle eastern country.

Are you actually reading what I'm writing?
Emulating in what way?
Which middle eastern country?

Originally Posted by human151

Do you really think that most pakistani immigrants to England, for example, consider themselves British? Or, do they still consider themselves Pakistani?

Both, depending on what you ask.

Nationally, British.
Ethnically, Pakistani, unless they're mixed race.
Culturally... a bit of both.

I'm guessing you'll be uncomfortable with that response, that it won't satisfy your craving for a straightforward, unambiguous, "with-us-or-against-us" single word answer. You may even think I'm wriggling out of the question. I'm not; it's what I genuinely observe to be the case. Not everyone feels a need to structure their identity according to one side or the other.

I'm an Englishman living in Wales / a Welshman born in England. If anyone asks me a stupid question like "what do you consider yourself" (it's stupid because what does it actually mean?) then I'll answer that I consider myself both English and Welsh. If that complexity makes their brain shortcircuit, then that's just too bad. They can always go recover by watching John Wayne shoot some Indians and Arnie punch some Middle Eastern terrorists.

[human151]

Originally Posted by Deckard

It would seem so, given statements like this...

Are you actually reading what I'm writing?
Emulating in what way?
Which middle eastern country?

Its a pretty straightforward statement.

Originally Posted by Deckard

Both, depending on what you ask.

Nationally, British.
Ethnically, Pakistani, unless they're mixed race.
Culturally... a bit of both.

Its a pretty straightforward question. If people choose to immigrate to a new country and become part of that society then they should consider themselves a national of that country. Think about the civil war in Yogoslavia. The Serbs considered themselves SERB and Christian. The Bosnians Identified themselves as Bosnian and Muslim. They were all Yugoslavian. Can I make it any more clearer for you.

Do you consider yourself to be "British"? if so, why? Could it be because you live in Britain?

Originally Posted by Deckard

I'm guessing you'll be uncomfortable with that response, that it won't satisfy your craving for a straightforward, unambiguous, "with-us-or-against-us" single word answer. You may even think I'm wriggling out of the question. I'm not; it's what I genuinely observe to be the case. Not everyone feels a need to structure their identity according to one side or the other.

Im not asking you to be with or against anyone. I am merely asking for a strightforward response to straightforward questions. You have a sneaky way about you in regards to actually answering questions.

Originally Posted by Deckard

I'm an Englishman living in Wales. If anyone asks me a stupid question like "what do you consider yourself" (it's stupid because what does it actually mean?) then I'll answer that I consider myself both English and Welsh. If that complexity makes their brain shortcircuit, then that's just too bad. They can always go recover by watching John Wayne shoot some Indians and Arnie punch some Middle Eastern terrorists.

What does it actually mean? It means exactly how it sounds. Are you British or not? wales is a state of Great Britain. You may be Welsh, but you are still British, unless of course you do not consider yourself British.

[Deckard]

Originally Posted by human151

You would be perfectly fine with the U.K., and Europe as a whole, one day emulating a middle eastern country.

Originally Posted by Deckard

Emulating in what way?
Which middle eastern country?

Originally Posted by human151

Its a pretty straightforward statement.

...as were were my questions requesting elaboration.

After all, my answer will be different depending on what precisely you mean.

Which Middle Eastern country are you talking about? And emulating in what respect? Do you mean Iran's attitude to homosexuality? Or Jordan's? I'll take the one where it's not criminalized thanks. Wearing saris? Decorating with henna? Wouldn't bother me in the slightest if that took off in Britain. Wearing burqas and niqabs? No I don't want that - I prefer seeing someone's face, though I wouldn't necessarily ban it. Saudi Arabia style gender parity? Absolutely not. Politeness and respect? Yep, we'll take some of that. Theocratic rule? No, I absolutely would not be fine about that. Eating spicy food? Whatever...

See what I'm doing here? I'm applying judgments on a case-by-case basis. And if it looks like a certain practise or custom that I really don't like is taking hold in Britain, then I'll vigorously oppose it. However, what I refuse to do is bracket something off and call it 'indigenous culture' and expect everyone to adhere to it. What I also refuse to do is expect only immigrants to adhere to it, thus setting up a two-tier society where they have fewer rights than the rest in society.

When I make a judgment call about certain cultural practices, I'll make it based on the practice itself, not on the immigration status of the individual (and certainly not on their ethnicity, religion or country of birth).

[Deckard]

Originally Posted by human151

Do you really think that most pakistani immigrants to England, for example, consider themselves British? Or, do they still consider themselves Pakistani?

Originally Posted by Deckard

Both, depending on what you ask. Nationally, British. Ethnically, Pakistani, unless they're mixed race. Culturally... a bit of both.

Originally Posted by human151

Its a pretty straightforward question.

And I responded with a straightforward answer. But here it is again, broken down into more detail. Nationally, it's a technical question - whatever is on their passport. Culturally, some Pakistani immigrants to Britain will consider themselves British. Some will consider themselves Pakistani. If you're asking me to speculate about how most would define themselves, I'd say a majority would consider themselves both British AND Pakistani. (If this answer annoys you and you demand one identity or the other and you think I'm wriggling out of the question, then you need to rein in that tribal mind of yours and try to think in a less binary way! Because clearly not everyone feels the need to pick a single cultural identity.)

Originally Posted by human151

I am merely asking for a strightforward response to straightforward questions. You have a sneaky way about you in regards to actually answering questions.

Ask a question that's less vague or less loaded with unnecessarily broad assumptions, and you'll get a better answer. If I don't share the premise of your question, then I'm unlikely to be able to provide you with one of the answers you were expecting. Where that happens, I'm trying to explain. That's not being sneaky, it's being honest.

[Deckard]

Originally Posted by human151

Do you consider yourself to be "British"?
if so, why? Could it be because you live in Britain?

Yes and yes. But then it's not just because I live in Britain. It's also likely because I've always lived in Britain, so there are no other countries for me to consider. Had I been born in Australia or Pakistan and subsequently moved here, then who knows. And by the way this was the very reason for me bringing up the point about being English/Welsh, because it raises a similar question...

Originally Posted by human151

Are you British or not? wales is a state of Great Britain. You may be Welsh, but you are still British, unless of course you do not consider yourself British.

I haven't denied my Britishness (and thanks for reminding me where Wales is, I'd almost forgotten. ) The reason I brought up the example of England and Wales is because, besides being in Britain, these are also two individual nations with their own sense of identity, their own sense of nationalism and loyalty, and it's a question that is raised surprisingly often. And when people ask it, I usually answer: I'm both. Probably I feel slightly more English if I'm being honest (country of my birth) which may explain why I initially described myself as an Englishman living in Wales rather than a Welshman born in England. But that may also have something to do with the strong sense of nationalism felt and expressed by many in Wales - overt expressions of nationalism are something I have never particularly cared for.

But the short answer is 'both' and 'who really cares' (besides those with a fixation on which tribe people belong to.)

[human151]

So what do you think about what your Prime Minister said?

part 1



part 2



Im very interested on British peoples' opinion on this.