Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history

[human151]

Originally Posted by Deckard

From a cultural point of view, no it doesn't bother me - provided the laws and values remain enlightened and liberal. My opponents are the opponents of liberalism, not Muslims. I think where I'm differing from you is that I don't believe there has to be a single established "culture" that forever belongs to Great Britain. It's dictated by the people. .

The problem, atleast in my view, is that the culture is changing not because of the British people. The government is letting anyone in with a pulse from many differing clutures and that is changing the culture. How would the culture evolve if it were allowed to with just controlled immigration? We will never know that answer because the culture many European countries is being changed by outside forces comming into the country and forcing their new homeland to adapt to their culture. Why do the governments let so many people in? Does Europe, and America for that matter, have a shortage of people?

Originally Posted by Deckard

And if the people change, then the culture may quite naturally change. And so it should. Culture belongs to the people who experience it.

Again, the change in culture is being forced upon the natural born citizens of U.K. and other countries. DO the natural born citizens of those countries have any say in how their culture changes?

Originally Posted by Deckard

Now if people don't like the country becoming "more Muslim" or "more Pakistani" or "less British", then the thing to do is to take a stand against immigration. Don't take a stand against the people who are already perfectly legally here. Those people deserve the exact same freedoms to dress/speak/wear/worship what they like (including "clothing specific to a culture and/or religion") because the rest of us have those freedoms.

When the people do say that thay do not want their country and culture to change, people call them rascist and xenophobic. There is a stigma associated with speaking out. No one wants to be known as a racist. I am not a racist, but I am not afraid to speak out either, not that what I say really matters. The government will continue to let millions upon millions of people in to our countries, and I really have no idea why. Are western nations obligated to take in people from third world countries? Seems the answer is yes. I know that the majority of these people are great people and just looking for a better life, but our countries are broke and many cities in the United States aren't able to provide the services that they should. Camden, New Jersey is laying off about 50% of its police because they are broke. I dont't know how bad it is in Europe, but here its bad and just this week Los Angeles Country, in California, admitted that illegal immigrants cost the county $600,000,000 a year because of the benefits they receive from the county. Take a look at this story explaining that while 15 million americans are out of work, many immigrants new to the country over the past couple of years are working. I would guess that similar things happen in Europe as well.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70J37P20110120

Originally Posted by Deckard

If a majority of the people in a country don't like the way immigrants are changing their country, then tackle the government on immigration. Don't judicially (or even just mentally) punish people for wearing certain clothes once they're here, when the rest of us can wear what we like.

Ban the full length burqa in certain situations by all means - but be consistent in other instances too, don't just make it about Muslims. In other words, if security is the issue, then also ban balaclavas and bike helmets. The debate about the burqa should be separate from the debate about immigration.

as was already said, most people and politicians for that matter, won't tackle immigration because once they do they are swiftly branded as a racist. Also, here in USA if any politician is against illegal immigration, he will not get the hispanic American vote. Apparently, most americans of Hispanic American origin do not want illegal immigration to end and furthermore, want the 15 million illegal hispanic immigrants here already, to be granted citizenship. Anytime a politician talks about really cracking down on illegal immigrants, the Hispanic organizations go on the tele and talk about how they are going to be boycotted and that they will urge all Hispanic Americans to vote against them. I have to laugh actually when I think if this. The Government has allowed so many illegal immigrants from one region to come here over the past 30 years, while they turn a blind eye, now that illegal immigration is out of control, there is nothing they can really do to stop them because so many of them have had children who are now of voting age and have become legal themselves that the conservative party is unable to stop illegal immigration if they wanted to because if they did then they would be voted out by all the Hispanics. LMAO.

Sorry about jumping to different topics, but they all tie in together. I'll leave you with this link about the muslim actress from the Harry Potter films.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70K3DP20110121

Apparently, the Males of the family want to force her to adhere to her muslim culture, while she wants to be just British. This is a cultural dispute. In their country of origin this act is completely acceptable.

Also, I am pretty sure that you are a liberal person. What about the muslim religion/culture makes you think that the majority of the muslim people would accept your way life and thoughts? In my opinion, the muslim religion is the polar opposite to liberalism.

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by human151

Sorry about jumping to different topics, but they all tie in together. I'll leave you with this link about the muslim actress from the Harry Potter films.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70K3DP20110121

Apparently, the Males of the family want to force her to adhere to her muslim culture, while she wants to be just British. This is a cultural dispute. In their country of origin this act is completely acceptable.

Also, I am pretty sure that you are a liberal person. What about the muslim religion/culture makes you think that the majority of the muslim people would accept your way life and thoughts? In my opinion, the muslim religion is the polar opposite to liberalism.

well, have you ever heard of house rules? for example, if you're living at home with your dad and mum still, and you bring playboy magazines and kegs of beer in the basement. your parents lay down the law and say "we aren't going to have that in our house". this is a reasonable responsibility a parent should be able to take. when it becomes different is when the parent or relative steps over the line and begins violating the law. where it becomes different is when the person moves away and the family follows them and refuses to leave them alone. there is a difference between legal acts of the parents and violating the law.

in this situation, the law was clearly violated. but that's not what you were aiming at before— before you were discussing cultural differences that are entirely legal for anyone in france or britain to take part in, and how a certain culture should not be allowed to have those rights. now you're talking about the differences in law between the two countries. so it seems we're just moving the line around— what is the line to cross in your opinion? in my opinion, the immigrants should be allowed to do whatever they wish to do as long as they don't violate standing laws in that country. to me that is the extent that they are required to adapt.

[Deckard]

Originally Posted by human151

I'll leave you with this link about the muslim actress from the Harry Potter films...

Thanks, but ask yourself - why didn't you leave me with the link about the Muslim woman whose brother didn't attack his sister?

Think about it...

[Deckard]

Let me try to establish where I'm coming from with this by using some figures (admittedly pulled out my ass, but the accuracy isn't the point here - the reasoning behind my conclusion is.)

Let's look at the % of different family types who might have a family member that would act like this Harry Potter actress' brother. No offence intended from the order of this list, but for the sake of argument let's say that...

0.02% of non-religious families would have someone who'd act like this.
0.05% of Christian families
0.08% of Jewish families
0.09% of Hindu families
0.19% of Muslim families

Now from this data there would clearly appear to be a bigger problem among Muslim families than families of any other religion (and I readily suspect that would be the case in real life). In this case, they are almost ten times more likely to contain a family member who would physically attack their sister for not marrying in their faith than a similar person from a family at the other end of the scale.

BUT... it would still mean that more than 99% (or a vast majority) of Muslim families are NOT like that.

And that un-newsworthy majority would by definition be invisible to you and to many like you - essentially decent people I think - but who continue to fall for this cognitive error, and latch onto the spate of stories with the kind of confirmation bias that does your decency no favors. You'll tell yourself things like "well these things are constantly in the newspapers and on TV and it's ALWAYS Muslims so it must be true" - but each time you'll be failing to apply a proper level of critical analysis and perspective to what you're hearing or reading.

Now I want to assure you that I have no problem in recognizing the greater problem among Muslim families than families of other religions, and I'm under no illusions about the much greater problem of extremism. I know my experience of Muslims - with my partner's family and friends, and with my own experiences in London - are certainly not going to be universal.

The problem I have is when you and many others come out with pronouncements about "Muslims" (they're illiberal, they're anti-social and isolationist, etc) as if they're all the same. Not "some Muslims". Not "a few Muslims". Not "the less libeal Muslims" No... just "Muslims". Or statements like "The main problem with the muslims in france is that they don't want to be French" (from earlier in the thread).

Surely you can see how wrong, unfair, unkind and potentially counterproductive this kind of talk is?

[Deckard]

Btw, it's not racist to oppose immigration or even to prefer your country's original 'culture'.

The difficulty has always been that a lot of actual racists and xenophobes ARE drawn to anti-immigration pro-indigenous culture positions.

And so guilt-by-association takes root.

As long as you always try to be precise in your language, specific in your outlook (ie. try to be aware of your generalizations), and kind in your heart, then ignore those calling you a racist.

Ultimately though, the fact that some people may wrongly label you racist for speaking out against the current scale or scope of immigration doesn't alter the fact that the debate needs to take place at the level of immigration, not at dictating how those people, once here, should dress/eat/worship.

Once here, we should all have the same freedoms. We may debate those freedoms, we may restrict or expand them, but that should happen irrespective of the religion or cultural origin of individuals.