fuck religion

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by //\/\/

SPOILER ALERT!!!!!

adrian; in the next episode, jesus comes back to life!


organised religion is always going to cause inherant problems as soon as you have differences - it's human nature. religous belief is based on the fear that 'this is it, and this is all there is'. religion denies that, and says 'psssst. do x, y and z and you get eternal life. imagine that, eh?' however, when a bunch of people start to get told that doing a,b and c are the way to do it, fear sets in. 'i've been doing x,y and z and those a,b and c folk have to change because i'm too scared to contemplate them being right all along. they can't be - i've been told all my life. they're wrong. aren't they. best shut them up. HEY! SHUT UP YOU LOT! YOUR'E WRONG? WHAT'S THAT? NO, I WON'T SHUT UP!...' etc...

i see buddhism more as a nice way to go about your life, than a religion; but have issues with the reincarnation aspect. i think that stems from the same old fear...

you are absolutely right. there are way too many people who think religion is some kind of cheat code to get into heaven and that's not what it's about at all. it's not about being good so G-d won't kick you out and send you to HELL!!!!!... it's about becoming closer to G-d of your own volition and using that advice in the holy books and through prayer to help other people and make the world a better place.

[Deckard]

Five quite different hypotheses on the future of religion (from Dan Dennett's Breaking The Spell). He makes the point that while other possibilities are describable, only one of these hypotheses (at most) will turn out to be true; the rest are not just wrong but wildly wrong.

1. The Enlightenment is long gone; the creeping "secularization" of modern societies that has been anticipated for two centuries is evaporating before our eyes. The tide is turning and religion is becoming more important than ever. In this scenario, religion soon resumes something like the dominant social and moral role it had before the rise of modern science in the seventeenth century. As people recover from their infatuation with technology and material comforts, spiritual identity becomes a person's most valued attribute, and populations come to be ever more sharply divided among Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, and a few other major multinational religious organizations. Eventually—it might take another millennium, or it might be hastened by catastrophe—one major faith sweeps the planet.

2. Religion is in its death throes; today's outbursts of fervor and fanaticism are but a brief and awkward transition to a truly modern society in which religion plays at most a ceremonial role. In this scenario, although there may be some local and temporary revivals and even some violent catastrophes, the major religions of the world soon go just as extinct as the hundreds of minor religions that are vanishing faster than anthropologists can record them. Within the lifetimes of our grandchildren, Vatican City becomes the European Museum of Roman Catholicism, and Mecca is turned into Disney's Magic Kingdom of Allah.

3. Religions transform themselves into institutions unlike anything seen before on the planet: basically creedless associations selling self-help and enabling moral teamwork, using ceremony and tradition to cement relationships and build "long-term fan loyalty." In this scenario, being a member of a religion becomes more and more like being a Boston Red Sox fan, or a Dallas Cowboys fan. Different colors, different songs and cheers, different symbols, and vigorous competition— would you want your daughter to marry a Yankees fan?—but aside from a rabid few, everybody appreciates the importance of peaceful coexistence in a Global League of Religions. Religious art and music flourish, and friendly rivalry leads to a degree of specialization, with one religion priding itself on its environmental stewardship, providing clean water for the world's billions, while another becomes duly famous for its concerted defense of social justice and economic equality.

4. Religion diminishes in prestige and visibility, rather like smoking; it is tolerated, since there are those who say they can't live without it, but it is discouraged, and teaching religion to impressionable young children is frowned upon in most societies and actually outlawed in others. In this scenario, politicians who still practice religion can be elected if they prove themselves worthy in other regards, but few would advertise their religious affiliation—or affliction, as the politically incorrect insist on calling it. It is considered as rude to draw attention to the religion of somebody as it is to comment in public about his sexuality or whether she has been divorced.

5. Judgment Day arrives. The blessed ascend bodily into heaven, and the rest are left behind to suffer the agonies of the damned, as the Anti-christ is vanquished. As the Bible prophecies foretold, the rebirth of the nation of Israel in 1948 and the ongoing conflict over Palestine are clear signs of the End Times, when the Second Coming of Christ sweeps all the other hypotheses into oblivion.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Deckard

Five quite different hypotheses on the future of religion (from Dan Dennett's Breaking The Spell). He makes the point that while other possibilities are describable, only one of these hypotheses (at most) will turn out to be true; the rest are not just wrong but wildly wrong.

1. The Enlightenment is long gone; the creeping "secularization" of modern societies that has been anticipated for two centuries is evaporating before our eyes. The tide is turning and religion is becoming more important than ever. In this scenario, religion soon resumes something like the dominant social and moral role it had before the rise of modern science in the seventeenth century. As people recover from their infatuation with technology and material comforts, spiritual identity becomes a person's most valued attribute, and populations come to be ever more sharply divided among Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, and a few other major multinational religious organizations. Eventually—it might take another millennium, or it might be hastened by catastrophe—one major faith sweeps the planet.

2. Religion is in its death throes; today's outbursts of fervor and fanaticism are but a brief and awkward transition to a truly modern society in which religion plays at most a ceremonial role. In this scenario, although there may be some local and temporary revivals and even some violent catastrophes, the major religions of the world soon go just as extinct as the hundreds of minor religions that are vanishing faster than anthropologists can record them. Within the lifetimes of our grandchildren, Vatican City becomes the European Museum of Roman Catholicism, and Mecca is turned into Disney's Magic Kingdom of Allah.

3. Religions transform themselves into institutions unlike anything seen before on the planet: basically creedless associations selling self-help and enabling moral teamwork, using ceremony and tradition to cement relationships and build "long-term fan loyalty." In this scenario, being a member of a religion becomes more and more like being a Boston Red Sox fan, or a Dallas Cowboys fan. Different colors, different songs and cheers, different symbols, and vigorous competition— would you want your daughter to marry a Yankees fan?—but aside from a rabid few, everybody appreciates the importance of peaceful coexistence in a Global League of Religions. Religious art and music flourish, and friendly rivalry leads to a degree of specialization, with one religion priding itself on its environmental stewardship, providing clean water for the world's billions, while another becomes duly famous for its concerted defense of social justice and economic equality.

4. Religion diminishes in prestige and visibility, rather like smoking; it is tolerated, since there are those who say they can't live without it, but it is discouraged, and teaching religion to impressionable young children is frowned upon in most societies and actually outlawed in others. In this scenario, politicians who still practice religion can be elected if they prove themselves worthy in other regards, but few would advertise their religious affiliation—or affliction, as the politically incorrect insist on calling it. It is considered as rude to draw attention to the religion of somebody as it is to comment in public about his sexuality or whether she has been divorced.

5. Judgment Day arrives. The blessed ascend bodily into heaven, and the rest are left behind to suffer the agonies of the damned, as the Anti-christ is vanquished. As the Bible prophecies foretold, the rebirth of the nation of Israel in 1948 and the ongoing conflict over Palestine are clear signs of the End Times, when the Second Coming of Christ sweeps all the other hypotheses into oblivion.

My money's on number 2.

[Rog]

there is no god or heaven or life ever after you bloody fools

you're born, you live, you die and thats all.

[bryantm3]

we have to remember that religion, not G-d is what has caused so many wars, deaths, and so much pain and sorrow. G-d never once said in the bible or qu'ran "kill everyone who disagrees with you". In fact, let me quote this reading from Jonah from Yom Kippur, I really think it suits. Excuse the old English translation, there are many different translations, none of them exactly right, but this one keeps the story intact and it has a kind of rythymic flow to it.

And the word of HaShem came unto Jonah the second time, saying: 'Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and make unto it the proclamation that I bid thee.' So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of HaShem. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city, of three days' journey. And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he proclaimed, and said: 'Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.'

And the people of Nineveh believed G-d; and they proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them. And the tidings reached the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying: 'Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing; let them not feed, nor drink water; but let them be covered with sackcloth, both man and beast, and let them cry mightily unto G-d; yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. Who knoweth whether G-d will not turn and repent, and turn away from His fierce anger, that we perish not?' And G-d saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and G-d repented of the evil, which He said He would do unto them; and He did it not.

But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was angry. And he prayed unto HaShem, and said: 'I pray Thee, O HaShem, was not this my saying, when I was yet in mine own country? Therefore I fled beforehand unto Tarshish; for I knew that Thou art a gracious G-d, and compassionate, long-suffering, and abundant in mercy, and repentest Thee of the evil.

Therefore now, O HaShem, take, I beseech Thee, my life from me; for it is better for me to die than to live.' And HaShem said: 'Art thou greatly angry?' Then Jonah went out of the city, and sat on the east side of the city, and there made him a booth, and sat under it in the shadow, till he might see what would become of the city.

And HaShem G-d prepared a gourd, and made it to come up over Jonah, that it might be a shadow over his head, to deliver him from his evil. So Jonah was exceeding glad because of the gourd. But G-d prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd, that it withered. And it came to pass, when the sun arose, that G-d prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat upon the head of Jonah, that he fainted, and requested for himself that he might die, and said: 'It is better for me to die than to live.'

And G-d said to Jonah: 'Art thou greatly angry for the gourd?' And he said: 'I am greatly angry, even unto death.' And HaShem said: 'Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow, which came up in a night, and perished in a night; and should not I have pity on Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than six score thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand, and also much cattle?'


This is one example of how humans think so much differently than G-d does... and on several occasions such as this one, he tried to communicate that mercy and love, not revenge and hate, is the most important thing. Sadly, people have twisted the words of G-d into something they are not to serve their own means.

[//\/\/]

Originally Posted by bill hicks

...the pope just bouncing around in that all-terrain popemobile, with the three feet of bulletproof plexiglass around him. boy, there's faith in action.

(i'm sure i remember adding this to a dirtylist thread way back, too!)

[Future Proof]

I'm pretty comfortable asserting that if people didn't have religion as reason to slaughter that they'd find something else. People are the problem, as evidenced by the fact that there are many that are exposed to religion and don't have a violent reaction with it. The people that wish to be led around by promises on paper from Jesus, Allah, Buddha and would kill in the name of them are psychotic. Or at least it seems that way, especially to consider that if I was asked to kill someone in the name of religion, strong believer or not, I'd laugh and flip the bird. Because after all, a sane person doesn't need religion or law to understand that killing is wrong. I believe that the sane person, though potentially ignorant of the law, knows from their gut what evil and wrong is and is not.

So, I say unto you in return, don't fuck religion. Fuck people. Fuck people and their ignorant, stupid dysfunctions, neuroses and beliefs. This earth is not big enough for the two of us, me and the rest of them, that is... but I will suffer though because regardless of how angry people make me, killing is still wrong... and I'm sane.

[froopy seal]

Originally Posted by Future Proof

I'm pretty comfortable asserting that if people didn't have religion as reason to slaughter that they'd find something else. People are the problem, as evidenced by the fact that there are many that are exposed to religion and don't have a violent reaction with it. The people that wish to be led around by promises on paper from Jesus, Allah, Buddha and would kill in the name of them are psychotic. Or at least it seems that way, especially to consider that if I was asked to kill someone in the name of religion, strong believer or not, I'd laugh and flip the bird. Because after all, a sane person doesn't need religion or law to understand that killing is wrong. I believe that the sane person, though potentially ignorant of the law, knows from their gut what evil and wrong is and is not.

Strong believer in natural law, eh? That said, I tend to agree with your gut feeling, to the degree that I fear evolving into a general misanthrope. Then again, like my Intercultural Communication lecturer said, prejudices help orienting oneself in strange cultures...

Originally Posted by Future Proof

Fuck people.

That sounds even better than Rog's first assessment.

Originally Posted by Future Proof

Fuck people and their ignorant, stupid dysfunctions, neuroses and beliefs. This earth is not big enough for the two of us, me and the rest of them, that is... but I will suffer though because regardless of how angry people make me, killing is still wrong... and I'm sane.

Good advice, I'll keep it in mind.

[Deckard]

I think what I would say is: fuck dogma. Religious, political, scientific, whatever. And fuck irrationalism.

If I'm permitted one dogma of my own without contradicting myself, it is that there have to be minds open and flexible enough to reason. Without those minds, there's simply no way to begin resolving our differences.

Dogmatic thinking says no, I'm not shifting, it's wrong, it is what it is, it's written in stone, questioning it is wrong/blasphemous/unscientific/disrespectful/un-American/etc.

But we're apes, and we'll probably be battling our animalistic dogmatic and dichotomous natures right until the end.

(or at least until we're supplanted by our silicon successors )

[froopy seal]

Originally Posted by Deckard

I think what I would say is: fuck dogma. Religious, political, scientific, whatever. And fuck irrationalism.

If I'm permitted one dogma of my own without contradicting myself, it is that there have to be minds open and flexible enough to reason. Without those minds, there's simply no way to begin resolving our differences.

Dogmatic thinking says no, I'm not shifting, it's wrong, it is what it is, it's written in stone, questioning it is wrong/blasphemous/unscientific/disrespectful/un-American/etc.

In other words: There is only one absolute: That there are no absolutes in the universe.

Originally Posted by Deckard

(or at least until we're supplanted by our silicon successors )

I'm counting on peaceful transcendental Space Odyssee beings...