French MPs vote to ban Islamic full veil in public

[Deckard]

Chris Hitchens in Slate:

The French legislators who seek to repudiate the wearing of the veil or the burqa—whether the garment covers "only" the face or the entire female body—are often described as seeking to impose a "ban." To the contrary, they are attempting to lift a ban: a ban on the right of women to choose their own dress, a ban on the right of women to disagree with male and clerical authority, and a ban on the right of all citizens to look one another in the face. The proposed law is in the best traditions of the French republic, which declares all citizens equal before the law and—no less important—equal in the face of one another.

Ah I see.. so all the French are proposing is "lifting" a ban?

Presumably conservative Muslims are similarly "lifting" the right of women to reveal their heads/faces?

Seriously Hitch, for all your strengths, every now and again you come out with the most shocking sophistry.

[Strangelet]

Hitchens would throw his own mother at the pope if he felt like he had a clear shot. Everything I read of hitchens suggests he would tolerate a police state if it were free of religion.

Its retarded for a government body to posture themselves as a solution to this problem and I gaurantee it will cause a dangerous precedent in western culture. Governments have absolutely no business debating such a ban.

It gets really old when the culture is jammed with the attitude that people who don't want governments enacting this ban somehow support the evil in question, in this case burqas.

[Deckard]

Originally Posted by Strangelet

Its retarded for a government body to posture themselves as a solution to this problem

But which problem? That's what I'm trying to ascertain in all this.

Honestly, me personally, I wouldn't have a major problem with the government coming out with a rule about keeping faces uncovered in certain public buildings. It's just about at the limit of what I'd find acceptable in the security-liberty trade-off, but I could just about accept it if the reason was right. The problem I have is that in this instance the reasons aren't remotely convincing, or at least they're reasons that the government has no business getting involved in (effectively forced integration). And yet it has such overwhelming backing, it's disturbing.

A British newspaper carried out a poll last month and found a ban on burkhas is supported by 99 per cent of Britons

A third of Britons back an outright ban on the burkha and two-thirds believe it should be illegal to wear the full-face covering in places such as banks and airports, a poll found. The survey of 1,000 people this year also found that 60 per cent said schools should be allowed to prevent teachers wearing burkhas.

Admittedly that newspaper was the Daily Express (giving Muslims a good kicking since 2001) but there seems to be no question about it, the public are solidly behind this.

EDIT: The Islamic veil across Europe

[Strangelet]

Originally Posted by Deckard

But which problem? That's what I'm trying to ascertain in all this.

fantastic question.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Deckard

Chris Hitchens in Slate:
The French legislators who seek to repudiate the wearing of the veil or the burqa...are attempting to lift...a ban on the right of women to choose their own dress

Does he not see this inherent conflict within his stance? How exactly are you making it possible to give women the right to "choose their own dress" through telling them they aren't legally allowed to wear something? That is, by definition, limiting women's right to "choose their own dress".

[stimpee]

Originally Posted by Sean

Does he not see this inherent conflict within his stance? How exactly are you making it possible to give women the right to "choose their own dress" through telling them they aren't legally allowed to wear something? That is, by definition, limiting women's right to "choose their own dress".

this does of course assume that its the woman who chooses to wear the burka and not the wish of her husband.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by stimpee

this does of course assume that its the woman who chooses to wear the burka and not the wish of her husband.

Absolutely. Surely, some women do wear it willingly as one of many expressions of their faith. And on the flipside, quotes like Hitchins' assume that every woman who wears a burqa is unwillingly compelled to do so.

If the concern is truly women's rights, then I would expect to see legislation more tailored to combating the core of the issue as opposed to what this is - simply targeting one of it's symptoms. And targeting it in such a way that will actually be harder on the women who ARE compelled to wear burqas by their husbands or clerics no less. Instead of just being forced to wear a burqa, now the woman will also be forced to pay a fine and is left stuck between a rock and a hard place - do as their misogynistic husband is telling them to do or face the consequences, or do as the country's laws are telling them to do or face the consequences?