Arizona - WTF?

[34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j]

I never said it was a biiiiig fucking problem, but it's not a good thing now is it? Like, ultimately I think we ought to make the immigration process a little easier than just kicking them out. I realize the whole argument is "they take the jobs no one wants" but that's a little difficult right now...our unemployment rate is huge and there are plenty of people who want those jobs. That article didn't really have any hard data but even accepting it's true the fact is why even have the law at all if we're not going to try to enforce it? I can link sites with data to back up that maybe it's not such a great thing like this one: http://www.usillegalaliens.com/ I don't really like the tone of that site but I doubt that it's all bullshit.

Anyway what exactly do you mean "smear an entire ethnic group"? Is that what you think I'm doing? I mean it's not exactly the Canadians causing these problems is it? I'm not saying Russian drug violence in America isn't a problem or that we don't have our own drug problems, but we're not exactly leiniant on those issues so I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. Ultimately this bill is really just going to give police officers (half of which are Mexican, by the way) the power to enforce the law as written. The point of this is not "wow, we should do something about all the brown people" but rather "wow, we should do something about the fact that we're averaging one kidnapping per day in this state".

If you don't think illegals are a problem don't you feel that we should just open the borders entirely? How would you see that working out?

Once again I feel like 90% of the reaction to this is the same type of hysteria we had with the Patriot Act 8 years ago...yes it gives the government some pretty scary power but in the end they're not going to just use it on random innocents to read their emails. I don't get the impression that they're going to be just randomly taking brown people to jail because of this bill either. Because the lawmakers KNOW what they're getting into with this bill; they know that AZ has a huge Latino population and most of those guys vote. You do know that Latino people are projected to overtake Causasians in America population-wise by 2050, right? Don't you realize how incredibly dumb it would be for any politician to anger that group?

[Rex]

Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j

I never said it was a biiiiig fucking problem, but it's not a good thing now is it? Like, ultimately I think we ought to make the immigration process a little easier than just kicking them out.

We are in agreement here. I don't like the lawlessness of the situation either.

Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j

I realize the whole argument is "they take the jobs no one wants" but that's a little difficult right now...our unemployment rate is huge and there are plenty of people who want those jobs.

No, the argument is "they take the jobs we offered them in the first place out of our greed." During the housing boom they were key to AZ expansion, they allowed more houses to go up in less time, allowing more mortgages and all the service sector to gain from the housing boom. And we used the little brown people because they were cheaper and worked their asses off without complaint. Now that the boom is busted, they simply supply a great punching bag.

Let me reiterate this because I think my point was missed. there are no jobs in this country. We have no manufacturing base. 2/3 of all employment is in the service and credit sectors, supplying services and credit to an economy that produces nothing. All Jobs are in China. We now have american companies using bail out money to build factories in other countries to supply products to us. We now have american companies building factories in other countries to sell shit to china's rising consumer base. It came out that Goldman Sachs sent a significant chunk of its bail-out money overseas. Gorilla Glass, a hot new industry worth "billions", an american invention 30 years ago will see a boom of job growth in China.

The middle class in this country is getting squeezed out like a wet wash rag.

And I am laughing my ass off that I have to illustrate this point even more than I have, but how much sense does it make, in this situation, to bitch and moan about the lawn care industry going to the garcia brothers?

Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j

That article didn't really have any hard data but even accepting it's true the fact is why even have the law at all if we're not going to try to enforce it?

Enforcement is not a state police jurisdiction. so says the constitution.

Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j

Anyway what exactly do you mean "smear an entire ethnic group"? Is that what you think I'm doing?

I think some of the things you've said, and the arguments you've made go into mob politics. The same mob that's being stoked all over a disenfranchized unemployed middle class that is incapable of looking at the real causes of their situation.

here's a link refuting the hysteria around kidnapping in AZ

http://www.politifact.com/texas/stat...-capital-worl/


And incidentally I don't advocate an open border. I advocate a guarded border. What I also advocate is something less than a police state to solve the problem.

I could go on talking about Joe Arpaio and his links to private prison firms, how he has already made promises to go on raids god knows where and fill his tent prison where there is "plenty of room", how there are already reports of police so gung ho they are harrassing buses of native americans but what is the point.

Enjoy your fascist, broke ass ignorant country free of illegals. I just hope americans can look themselves in the eye one day and take responsibility for the part they played in the disaster playing out now, and soon to be in the future.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Rex. Rocks.

I have new reason to annoy the ____ outta everyone. Again.

[34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j]

Originally Posted by Rex

No, the argument is "they take the jobs we offered them in the first place out of our greed." During the housing boom they were key to AZ expansion, they allowed more houses to go up in less time, allowing more mortgages and all the service sector to gain from the housing boom. And we used the little brown people because they were cheaper and worked their asses off without complaint. Now that the boom is busted, they simply supply a great punching bag.

Unless you know something I don't, I don't think we were actively recruiting Mexicans to illegally cross the border. I don't disagree that they were key to the housing boom. BTW I don't think the point of this law was to rid Arizona of construction workers

Originally Posted by Rex

Let me reiterate this because I think my point was missed. there are no jobs in this country. We have no manufacturing base. 2/3 of all employment is in the service and credit sectors, supplying services and credit to an economy that produces nothing. All Jobs are in China. We now have american companies using bail out money to build factories in other countries to supply products to us. We now have american companies building factories in other countries to sell shit to china's rising consumer base. It came out that Goldman Sachs sent a significant chunk of its bail-out money overseas. Gorilla Glass, a hot new industry worth "billions", an american invention 30 years ago will see a boom of job growth in China.

The middle class in this country is getting squeezed out like a wet wash rag.

And I am laughing my ass off that I have to illustrate this point even more than I have, but how much sense does it make, in this situation, to bitch and moan about the lawn care industry going to the garcia brothers?

I don't think it's exactly as dire as you state, and I don't quite see the logic behind saying both "there are no jobs in this country" and "it's okay if illegals take the jobs we have"

You have a valid point that there are bigger fish to fry, but why argue this at all then?

Originally Posted by Rex

Enjoy your fascist, broke ass ignorant country free of illegals. I just hope americans can look themselves in the eye one day and take responsibility for the part they played in the disaster playing out now, and soon to be in the future.

So my argument will lead to a "fascist, broke ass ignorant country" and yours will lead to nothing worse than "the Garcias are mowing the lawn"?? Well I'm not exactly arguing that we should deport all the illegals either. Weird you call America "ignorant" simply for trying to enforce the law we have. So you don't support an open border, but don't care if some people sneak over? We're not talking about keeping out honest, good-natured individuals in search of a better life. It's all how you frame the argument. Once again I am guessing you don't and have never lived in Arizona (or Texas, where I was born). It strikes me as a little nuts to say they're racist bastards for supporting this law because as I mentioned earlier, nobody who was actually racist would want to live there. Sure, some of them are, they do stupid things, and they make the news. Also, plenty of Mexicans hate Americans, did you know that? As I said I've been there for a decent amount of time and yeah, many people I've talked to legit dislike Americans and you better believe that if we started sneaking in the country in droves selling drugs over there we'd probably be shot on the spot. It's just that America is in the position of power in this case.

Again, I'd really wait to see how this was actually enforced before saying America is headed for collapse as a direct result of this law (or whatever). I would bet dollars to donuts that nearly everyone is overreacting.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j

I never said it was a biiiiig fucking problem, but it's not a good thing now is it? Like, ultimately I think we ought to make the immigration process a little easier than just kicking them out. I realize the whole argument is "they take the jobs no one wants" but that's a little difficult right now...our unemployment rate is huge and there are plenty of people who want those jobs.

I and probably many other folks here saw an interview on the Colbert Report a couple weeks ago with the President of the Untied Farm Workers, Arturo Rodriquez. He's put together a website called www.takeourjobs.org, which offers a direct way for anyone willing to apply for a farming job currently being worked by immigrants - many illegal - to do so. As of the time of the interview, they had only received a couple applicants. And in reports I've seen on CNN, they've gone to some California farms and asked how many caucasians have ever applied for work, only for the foreman to tell them he's never had any apply. So if people want these jobs, they aren't making their desire known.

Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j

Anyway what exactly do you mean "smear an entire ethnic group"? Is that what you think I'm doing? I mean it's not exactly the Canadians causing these problems is it? I'm not saying Russian drug violence in America isn't a problem or that we don't have our own drug problems, but we're not exactly leiniant on those issues so I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. Ultimately this bill is really just going to give police officers (half of which are Mexican, by the way) the power to enforce the law as written. The point of this is not "wow, we should do something about all the brown people" but rather "wow, we should do something about the fact that we're averaging one kidnapping per day in this state".

Lots of points in here. One, while you may not be trying to "smear an entire ethnic group", that's exactly what SB1070 will result in, whether intentional or not. A law that dictates police must verify the immigration status of people they have "reasonable suspicion" towards, in a state that shares a border with Mexico, will inevitably result in everyone of Mexican heritage who's approached by a cop likely being put in a position of having to defend their legal status. Especially when SB1070 stipulates that any citizen witnessing a cop NOT verifying immigration status can sue that cop.

Secondly, despite insistence to the contrary by supporters of SB1070, this bill does NOT mirror federal law. The two stipulations I highlighted above about "reasonable suspicion" and citizens being able to sue cops that they don't feel are being stringent enough, are both unique to Arizona's bill. And beyond that, they are precisely what will be most destructive to the basic civil rights of American citizens of Mexican heritage.

Lastly, your statement declaring "the fact that we're averaging one kidnapping per day in this state" is a bit misleading in that it seems to imply that random illegal immigrants are coming into the United States and kidnapping random U.S. citizens. But according to what I've seen and heard, the issue is all thanks to the drug cartels dealing with collection issues and such through kidnappings of those who owe them money. And beyond that, many of the people who are kidnapping victims in Arizona are actually illegal immigrants who are then ransomed back to their families in Mexico - who are of course relatively helpless in doing anything about it through legal channels. And finally, virtually every other crime in Arizona has seen a drop-off in frequency, which further isolates the drug cartels as the root of any crime problems. So why not try exploring effective ways to deal with the specific issue of drug violence rather than a fundamentally flawed bill targeting all immigrants?

Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j

If you don't think illegals are a problem don't you feel that we should just open the borders entirely? How would you see that working out?

This always seems to get boiled down to an all-or-nothing argument, and I don't think it does the legitimate debate to be had any good. Illegals need a more reasonable path to citizenship if they've demonstrated that they're just here to work and be good, law-abiding citizens, as the vast majority are. It has been objectively observed that illegal immigrants have had a small net positive influence on our economy, and that virtually every city with a heavy population of illegal immigrants enjoys lower overall crime rates than cities without.

Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j

Once again I feel like 90% of the reaction to this is the same type of hysteria we had with the Patriot Act 8 years ago...yes it gives the government some pretty scary power but in the end they're not going to just use it on random innocents to read their emails. I don't get the impression that they're going to be just randomly taking brown people to jail because of this bill either. Because the lawmakers KNOW what they're getting into with this bill; they know that AZ has a huge Latino population and most of those guys vote. You do know that Latino people are projected to overtake Causasians in America population-wise by 2050, right? Don't you realize how incredibly dumb it would be for any politician to anger that group?

Dumb behavior by politicians? Imagine that!

[34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j]

Originally Posted by Sean

I and probably many other folks here saw an interview on the Colbert Report a couple weeks ago with the President of the Untied Farm Workers, Arturo Rodriquez. He's put together a website called www.takeourjobs.org, which offers a direct way for anyone willing to apply for a farming job currently being worked by immigrants - many illegal - to do so. As of the time of the interview, they had only received a couple applicants. And in reports I've seen on CNN, they've gone to some California farms and asked how many caucasians have ever applied for work, only for the foreman to tell them he's never had any apply. So if people want these jobs, they aren't making their desire known.

I don't really know if this is a good argument against SB1070 but it's a good point. I appriciate that someone is taking the time to make sites like that but I'm not sure if that fully gauges the interest...I would doubt that even a handful of out-of-work caucasians know about that site.

Originally Posted by Sean

Lots of points in here. One, while you may not be trying to "smear an entire ethnic group", that's exactly what SB1070 will result in, whether intentional or not. A law that dictates police must verify the immigration status of people they have "reasonable suspicion" towards, in a state that shares a border with Mexico, will inevitably result in everyone of Mexican heritage who's approached by a cop likely being put in a position of having to defend their legal status. Especially when SB1070 stipulates that any citizen witnessing a cop NOT verifying immigration status can sue that cop.

Secondly, despite insistence to the contrary by supporters of SB1070, this bill does NOT mirror federal law. The two stipulations I highlighted above about "reasonable suspicion" and citizens being able to sue cops that they don't feel are being stringent enough, are both unique to Arizona's bill. And beyond that, they are precisely what will be most destructive to the basic civil rights of American citizens of Mexican heritage.

Lastly, your statement declaring "the fact that we're averaging one kidnapping per day in this state" is a bit misleading in that it seems to imply that random illegal immigrants are coming into the United States and kidnapping random U.S. citizens. But according to what I've seen and heard, the issue is all thanks to the drug cartels dealing with collection issues and such through kidnappings of those who owe them money. And beyond that, many of the people who are kidnapping victims in Arizona are actually illegal immigrants who are then ransomed back to their families in Mexico - who are of course relatively helpless in doing anything about it through legal channels. And finally, virtually every other crime in Arizona has seen a drop-off in frequency, which further isolates the drug cartels as the root of any crime problems. So why not try exploring effective ways to deal with the specific issue of drug violence rather than a fundamentally flawed bill targeting all immigrants?

This always seems to get boiled down to an all-or-nothing argument, and I don't think it does the legitimate debate to be had any good. Illegals need a more reasonable path to citizenship if they've demonstrated that they're just here to work and be good, law-abiding citizens, as the vast majority are. It has been objectively observed that illegal immigrants have had a small net positive influence on our economy, and that virtually every city with a heavy population of illegal immigrants enjoys lower overall crime rates than cities without.

I agree that the bill as written does allow for a lot of discrimination, and it's no surprise the amount of broad language contained within. I don't think that any cops are going to actually get sued (how often do you witness people getting arrested anyway? But yeah that is a really stupid clause to put in there), but even if they do, keep in mind the thing I mentioned earlier, that there's such a huge (legal) Latino population in Arizona that the shit would really hit the fan should any of these nightmare discrimination scenarios really happen. If police start using this bill to take out their hidden racist impulses I think that it will be repealed fast. Oddly enough I still have faith in the American people and our system.

I realize that the 'one kidnapping per day' stat is misleading, and that's the way it is in Mexico too, but it's not an excuse to just let it slide. Even if the kidnapees ARE involved with the druglords, it's not like they deserve to die; same with the illegals. Secondly, I do believe a lot of innocents are getting kidnapped and ransomed, because I've heard a lot of stuff firsthand. It's not as though Arizona is unsafe but I can see their tolerance for this sort of thing wearing thin. As for a drug-violence related bill; what do you propose? It's not like they haven't been trying to fight this for years...

The all-or-nothing argument does apply to this bill, even if it doesn't really apply to the issue at hand which is immigration in general. We need to fix this system and deal with the problem up front instead of passing laws like this one; on that I agree. But given the absence of any type of immigration reform, I do understand a bill like this. Clearly the AZ government sees illegals as a problem, and I don't believe it's because "they hate Mexicans over there". Most likely because they do abuse our health care system and don't pay taxes (yes, I know that some do pay taxes). I know that many of them are just earnest, hard-working people that are good for our economy, but the question then is, why have the law at all? If I put on a blue jersey and started working at Wal-Mart without being hired would I not be arrested regardless of whether or not I was helping?

Look, it's clear there's a problem here...70% of Arizonans support the law, and it's a clear mistake to just say "well, they're all uneducated and racist". And this is in a state with a huge population of Latinos! They're better educated than you think.