Rumors in the age of unreason

[dubman]

isnt that the same kind of binary that prevents even the pretense at objective fact?
somehow i dont think following a medley of news sources to go after some perfect balance will result in a more stable anything. people are terrible, people like being terrible and finding new ways to be terrible, so it will keep being easy to knock down people who try not to be terrible.

racism will evolve with a different dialogue our kids will think we havent addressed, more virulent parties will think to combine the rhetoric of different atrocities, convinced that they'll use what's worked towards a right solution "this time."
since both of those are happening right now it's either falling down to degradation or realizing that it's the same kind of bullshit that will keep balancing and tumbling with itself as long as we're around.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by dubman

isnt that the same kind of binary that prevents even the pretense at objective fact?

Sorry...isn't what the same kind of binary...etc?

Originally Posted by dubman

somehow i dont think following a medley of news sources to go after some perfect balance will result in a more stable anything. people are terrible, people like being terrible and finding new ways to be terrible, so it will keep being easy to knock down people who try not to be terrible.

I don't personally think that following a medley of news sources is the answer either. For me, it's about attitudes in general. Referencing a variety of sources of information can certainly help inform you about all sides of a debate, but that's not really what's at the heart of the problem in my opinion. Until people start looking at issues like the economy, health care, climate change, education, international relations, etc as things that need to be solved rather than as arguments to be won, I fear that we'll just keep sinking deeper and deeper into this vicious cycle of animosity and self-serving manipulation.

Originally Posted by dubman

racism will evolve with a different dialogue our kids will think we havent addressed, more virulent parties will think to combine the rhetoric of different atrocities, convinced that they'll use what's worked towards a right solution "this time."
since both of those are happening right now it's either falling down to degradation or realizing that it's the same kind of bullshit that will keep balancing and tumbling with itself as long as we're around.

I agree wholeheartedly that these problems have always existed, but where we've gotten to technologically has magnified them to a point that's brand new. There have always been "Joe the Plumbers" out there, but before the age of 24 hour, instant news coverage, he was never afforded the kind of incredible soap-box he ended up getting. Instead, he may have ended up a local hero/pariah to the people in his neighborhood - but an internationally recognized figure who gets his own television shows, advertising deals, invitations to be a guest on national talk shows, record deals, and consideration to run for public office? Not so much. And beyond individuals, there's the ability to rally masses of people on a scale that was previously unheard of with relative ease. Obama seized effectively on this in a constructive way for the first time in history during his campaign. Rush Limbaugh, MoveOn.org and Glenn Beck seize on it in not so constructive ways as they fire up their base supporters with the most dishonest rhetoric imaginable. As a result, we see things like the "tea party" events all over the country, droves of people happily parroting accusations of, among other things, Nazism against their political opponents, etc. But I guess at least they learn fancy words like "dithering" in the process.

Anyone out there can put whatever information they want on Wikipedia, their own blogs, or on any number of other websites, and if they can find a way to steer enough traffic to them, then they've effectively reached more people than they ever would have otherwise. So the crazies who used to just rock back and forth alone in their basement now rock back and forth in their basement with a potential audience of millions. Strangelet, you're more optimistic about it than I am when you say that "specific problems facing individuals...will essentially force people start searching and reading based on problems, not ideologies". In my mind, it seems like people have more of an outlet for their ideological beliefs than ever before, and will continue to take advantage of it - too often in negative, even destructive ways - as long as people are listening.

[dubman]

Sorry...isn't what the same kind of binary...etc?

this:

So I feel like global society is at a tipping point, where if we tip one way we race headlong into the downfall of the human race, tip the other and we'll actually survive to evolve into a far more advanced and stable future. I honestly feel like it's a 50/50 crap-shoot at this point.

Until people start looking at issues like the economy, health care, climate change, education, international relations, etc as things that need to be solved rather than as arguments to be won, I fear that we'll just keep sinking deeper and deeper into this vicious cycle of animosity and self-serving manipulation.

i agree, but i think we're too used to being a part of A Party that knows what's right. try to strip that away and the differences in opinion on how those should be done will still be lines drawn in the sand and made ideological. people understand that in order to get things done it has to be marketed to as many people as possible, meaning someone has to "lose", meaning co-operation is a facade at best.

There have always been "Joe the Plumbers" out there, but before the age of 24 hour, instant news coverage, he was never afforded the kind of incredible soap-box he ended up getting.

we havent waxed enough on how everything's gotten smaller by now? exposure's only limited by reach. if we can reach everyone, it's still the same neighborhood mentality, with the rise and fascination and backlash and mockery. just because the size of these reactions has gotten bigger (advertising deals and job offers doesnt say much for real import, just how the chatter processes) doesnt mean a bold new age has come.

So the crazies who used to just rock back and forth alone in their basement now rock back and forth in their basement with a potential audience of millions.

this i agree with. whats funny is that currently, people are enjoying this widespread fairness (relatively) of exposure. that's new. the problem is that people are idiots. you have 'artists' on deviantart re-tracing the same image with little in the way of technical ability getting thousands of hits from other hubs of mediocrity, yet demanding respect for their 'style'. these people trade back and forth and convince themselves that they're brilliant and ready. you have a staggering glut of crap on youtube which goes without saying, but is still exciting enough people trying to figure out how to make millions off of it. running a blog is simultaneously a necessity as well as a liability. "user-generated content" is an eye-roll for the cynic and still exciting for the naive, but the saturation of this idea is going to get hit hard by backlash, because people just react to whatever is happening for the sake of new. what i cant tell will happen is what's going to come out of it.

Can't say I disagree with much of what you said. Its just not enough to convince me that reading a lot of news sources of differing levels of quality and bents isn't a good idea and something to recommend everyone else do as well. If the reasons I gave above aren't enough I can provide more.

look, it's not that i dont agree, it's just that it's exhausting, because even on the slim chance that the material is good and well-covered, people come up talking about it in a hideously stupid manner, and since news networks place a premium on what people want to see, thats the dialogue that gets follow-up, and That Which Didn't Have Much of a Chance just drowns outright.
there was a time that i bought that cherry picking your sources and getting all sides before forming an opinion was the way to go, but when you start to realize that everyone is willing to lie or color because it's really just a game to win that they have to be practical about, it's very disheartening and, as said before, exhausting.

i'm cynical about myself, so realizing that the cherry-picking attitude is really just reacting against the assumption that people are self-serving would let me dismiss it as my delusion that i'm supposedly above all that. but when i see it in others i could either accept that as paranoia, or realize that peole use news, as colored as it is, as a measure of character, or as a game to be ahead of curve in. it really makes me question whether any of this is real information after people process it so self-consciously or if it's just external distractions that need to be relevant because there's not anything else.

How do you expect any diversity of opinions to sprout up otherwise?

i'm saying that caring about them is overrated.

formulate every possible counter argument and weakness, then decide I "agree"

dont know about the "liking" or "turning off" but this is the basic process for me (if im educated enough about the topic to do it well). then i get to actually read people presenting weaknesses in printed form and it doesnt address anything decent. when i hate even listening to people i agree with on a topic, it cant help but feel like it's time to peace out.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by dubman

i agree, but i think we're too used to being a part of A Party that knows what's right. try to strip that away and the differences in opinion on how those should be done will still be lines drawn in the sand and made ideological. people understand that in order to get things done it has to be marketed to as many people as possible, meaning someone has to "lose", meaning co-operation is a facade at best.

I'm a big fan of diversity of opinions and ideologies, so I'm not speaking against that. What I'm speaking about is knee-jerk opposition for it's own sake, and how things like the internet have allowed it to become so coordinated on a large scale. Like cheering when the U.S. lost the Olympics - not because those people oppose the Olympics, but because they oppose Obama and perceived the loss of the Olympics as a way to damage his reputation. That's what I hate, and what makes me think we're not mature enough to handle our technological advances.

Originally Posted by dubman

we havent waxed enough on how everything's gotten smaller by now? exposure's only limited by reach. if we can reach everyone, it's still the same neighborhood mentality, with the rise and fascination and backlash and mockery. just because the size of these reactions has gotten bigger (advertising deals and job offers doesnt say much for real import, just how the chatter processes) doesnt mean a bold new age has come.

I believe it does in some ways. We're no longer isolated societies scattered around the world, where people's actions only impact those who share their immediate surroundings. Instead, we're suddenly being thrust into much more of a true, singular, global society where groups who rarely interacted in the past are now in constant and immediate contact with each other. It was within most of our lifetimes that this was not the case, so I see it as a pretty definitive bold new age. And my Joe the Plumber example was meant to simply illustrate that rather than just being a dumb-ass who asked a Presidential candidate a question, this guy actually has a national fan base that he can potentially influence if he manages to keep the spotlight on himself long enough. That certainly doesn't legitimize him, but it definitely does afford him far more import than he ever would have been afforded in past generations.

Originally Posted by dubman

this i agree with. whats funny is that currently, people are enjoying this widespread fairness (relatively) of exposure. that's new. the problem is that people are idiots. you have 'artists' on deviantart re-tracing the same image with little in the way of technical ability getting thousands of hits from other hubs of mediocrity, yet demanding respect for their 'style'. these people trade back and forth and convince themselves that they're brilliant and ready. you have a staggering glut of crap on youtube which goes without saying, but is still exciting enough people trying to figure out how to make millions off of it. running a blog is simultaneously a necessity as well as a liability. "user-generated content" is an eye-roll for the cynic and still exciting for the naive, but the saturation of this idea is going to get hit hard by backlash, because people just react to whatever is happening for the sake of new. what i cant tell will happen is what's going to come out of it.

Exactly.

[Strangelet]

god you guys are depressing. The one time I decide to be optimistic you guys are ready to throw the bed pan of the human race out the window and call the internet a tool that enabled bad people to be worse, as opposed to more evolved. At least Sean can see the bold new age coming

Regardless, I'm not really sure we're saying anything all that different at this point. I think we're just coming at this from different angles.

My angle is to desperately move away from post-partisan politics. I'm not optimistic enough to suggest that people would ever be "post-bias." I just want us to move out of this system of 1984-esque theatre of "choice" that plays out like pepsi versus coke

I'm firmly convinced that if this charade of democrat vs. republican continues much longer, people will be forced to rebel against the whole system. Because the "bias" problem goes deeper than the media and the internet.

For example, when Obama blames the economy on bush at the same breath he continues every single policy decision of the bush treasury, including all his wars, and when the dem news agents crucify bush for these policies but are silent about Obama's picking up where he left off, and when hannity all of a sudden decides a balanced budget is conservative, and when neither party are capable of pushing out legislation that does nothing more than promote the interests of the same banks and multinationals that stripped america's production and manufacturing and actually caused this mess, its going to collapse. maybe violently.

It will collapse in two possible ways. Either the two opposing sides will work themselves up into two caged dogs getting poked by their pundit handlers until they are let loose on each other, or a third, opposing grass movement will call bullshit on the whole facade. A coalition consisting of disgruntled independents, progressives and libertarians based on a platform of solving clearly defined problems with clearly defined solutions with the focus on individual freedoms, small businesses, and local economies.

I'm thinking that the only chance this country has is if the latter comes to pass.

What I'm saying is that drudge isn't just biased, he's partisan. Fox news is not just biased. They are the propaganda wing of the republican party. Actually they are the propaganda wing of a subset of the republican party that, through the 24 hour efforts of the network, appear to be the total republican party.

Assuming you prefer the huffington post and andrew sullivan I would ask if its because you necessarily agree with their bias, or is it because they are less partisan? (or that they talk in complete sentences)

Because I doubt, with our enlightened forum members, any of this is news to you all. I would be surprised if any of us consider themselves strongly republican or democrat. Which means we are using other criteria to decide what news sources are viable and which are bullshit that have nothing to do with partisanship.

And that's why we are saying the same thing. The original article talked about people getting entrenched in their own campsite based on who we agree with, without making any assertion about why they agree. We are making the assumption that all people are terrible and not capable of rational scrutiny, and that's the reason for the polarization. When its just as possible that some of the polarization is happening because the swamp gas republicans and the wide-spread-panic democrats are separating themselves from the critical thinkers. And the critical thinkers are just desperate for any news source that won't talk down to them like they should just assume the role of an angry manchild. Which is the reason I prefer the huffington post and andrew sullivan for the most part.

Originally Posted by dubman

if truth becomes something that can be decided by whoever markets their version the best, and it becomes normal, and we all dont become a grotesque monstrosity out of it, the habit will be considered how news is done today, with objections being waved off as 'archaic' vs 'what people want'
i suppose thats speculative and alarmist, conceivably the rules of backlash could mean an era of real unromantic reporting sometime, but it seems less likely somehow

You are right. The bumper sticker slogan of "Truth will prevail" should probably be rephrased. How about "Assertions that are true enough to not turn us in to grotesque monstrosities will prevail".

But either way, it is heartening to imagine that the internet has the power to speed up the process of that reckoning by way of providing information. So that people can go back and look through the audit trail of articles and see who was on the take and who wasn't, who should be voted out and who should be rewarded.

[dubman]

i dunno if you guys have noticed but this year i've been sniping on the side in this forum for just about anything i've cared to comment on. even though i knew the whole thing was going to be embarrassing a week later i figured that i should get it out there instead of becoming john-lite for no reason aside that i hate everyone.

i still cant take most of anything here seriously but it was nice to get it out.

We are making the assumption that all people are terrible and not capable of rational scrutiny, and that's the reason for the polarization

well no. all people are terrible, and thats the reason that no matter what happens, people will find new ways of being terrible, if necessary. it's not going to end with some brilliant third party taking charge, there's just going to be dissatisfaction and gnashing until someone who perverts the original intent takes charge and keeps screwing up.

i go on various news trackers, find articles i want to read, and do the wikipedia-style meandering where that leads to links to other interesting news articles. some days it's 2 hrs, other days it's 20 minutes.

[Strangelet]

so you're saying you're steven beck?

with respect to your views on humanity, you have to love something deeply in order to hate it. At least that's why I'm a misanthrope.

anyway, thanks, this is a new experience for me. I've never felt so condescended towards while finding accord at same time.

[jOHN rODRIGUEZ]

Just when you started to provide remarks that I didn't take a being snide, you go and say you were just being snide(in so many more words). Don't try to ditch the conversation just because not everyone here agrees with you.

It's, like, your filtering the conversation now.

[Strangelet]

haha. right. you use your trolling powers for good, not evil.

Originally Posted by dubman

well no. all people are terrible, and thats the reason that no matter what happens, people will find new ways of being terrible, if necessary. it's not going to end with some brilliant third party taking charge, there's just going to be dissatisfaction and gnashing until someone who perverts the original intent takes charge and keeps screwing up.

Yes. As the awesome Heath and Potter in the book Rebel Sell argued, revolutions can and mostly do just exacerbate the problem, its only by incremental agendas based on clearly defined steps of progress does the little guy experience anything different than a switch between dictators.

No. That's not an excuse to wave off nor discredit the efficacy to take on the cause of reform vis a vis new party structure in our current two party two step. Nor is it enough cause to excuse oneself from the process of affecting collective attitudes.

[mmm skyscraper]

Originally Posted by Sean

Until people start looking at issues like the economy, health care, climate change, education, international relations, etc as things that need to be solved rather than as arguments to be won, I fear that we'll just keep sinking deeper and deeper into this vicious cycle of animosity and self-serving manipulation.

Follow the money. Ask this question: who benefits?

Originally Posted by Sean

We're no longer isolated societies scattered around the world, where people's actions only impact those who share their immediate surroundings.

This has been true for a long time. Ask Gavrilo Princip about it.