is there anyone else who is pro-life AND pro-gay rights, or is it just me?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Deckard

Stimpee: I actually kind of appreciated the point you were trying to make re. the fish. If we take sanctity out of the equation, awareness of self and awareness of suffering are very good barometers for what some of us view as morally right or wrong. (I fully recognize that means I'm probably living unethically if not hypocritically in some ways, but I accept that is an inconsistency on my part between my own ideals/ethics and how close I choose to stick to them).

It's tough being omnivores who have evolved such a heightened aptitude for empathy. I think that's one of the reasons that we as a species still rely so heavily on religious concepts to get by in life - religion allows us to view ourselves as special, even superior to other species. The pain a cow, or a chicken, or even a fish feels isn't a major consideration as we eat a steak, pork chop, or fish n' chips because those animals weren't made in "God's image" like we were. So if you remove the conceit of religious beliefs from the equation, the fish comparison actually does become relevant. What life is worth valuing? If we're willing to be so flippant about the lives of the animals we eat and use for clothing and such, then why is a cluster of cells that hasn't even begun to resemble a human being yet held as so sacred?

Please keep in mind that I'm a meat-eating atheist, so I'm not trying to advocate a vegan diet or anything here. I'm personally at peace with the fact that humans are simply a link in a food chain, and that a portion of our diet requires the nutrients we can get from meat. And I generally place the preservation of human life above other animals simply because I am a human, and the survival of all species depends on self-preservation. I'm just interested in the contradictions we face at this point in our species' evolution, and it's undeniable that as we learn more about the planet we live on and the space around us, we're forced to re-examine many of our long-held beliefs that have been shaped largely by religious dogma. Which, incidentally, leads quite nicely into the other half of this thread's subject that's been passed over so far - gay rights.

Aside from religiously-based views of homosexuality, what's the problem with affording all the same rights to gays that straight people enjoy? As I've said before, the whole concept of marriage being between a man and a woman made far more sense in the past when procreation was a necessity for survival - families needing more hands to tend the fields, do the chores and such. But at this point in our history, marriage has simply become a public declaration and celebration of our commitment to the person we've chosen to share our lives with. And along with it has come a set of rights that respect that commitment, and make it easier to get through difficult situations as a couple. Or how about children? How do those who oppose gay adoption justify the consequences of that position? Why would they rather see a child denied a loving home at all than see them raised by a loving gay couple?

If we as a species are capable of empathy that extends all the way to an unformed cluster of cells in the womb, then why is it so hard to extend the same empathy to a fully matured man who finds themselves physically and emotionally attracted to other men, or a woman attracted to other women? What is the actual threat that justifies a law called "The Defense of Marriage Act"? It even amazes me that a name like that has been assigned to it....the DEFENSE of marriage...as if there were a bunch of gay people with torches and pitchforks coming to burn down marriage with their gayness or something.

I believe it's time that we as a species thought a little more. We're capable of it, but we're lazy. Instead of applying critical thought, we use religious dogma and "tradition" as a crutch. Or we allow politics to trump knowledge, as in the case of the 212 House Representatives that opposed the Waxman-Markey climate-change bill the other day, defending their positions with statements such as saying climate change is a “hoax...perpetrated out of the scientific community” - a declaration that was actually met with applause. But religion and tradition says that gays are bad, so they don't get the same rights as the rest of us. And religion says human life is sacred, so abortion must be banned (although we'll kill the doctors who perform them). It's extremely disheartening, and we're not going to survive as a species if we don't start thinking better.

Okay, I'm just rambling now, but I did try to keep it somewhat on topic....