sherburne on underworld

[adam]

KiD CUE IS DUCKIE?!?!?!?!1

[BeautifulBurnout]

Originally Posted by machin chouette

well , i can't see the problem ! (with the article)
i hav'nt read all the posts here (cause it is so boring = personal calling etc)
but am i dreaming or does he brings a question about
the kind of audience / big size and the music you will create ?
as if you 've got in mind (before actually start an album) "well we / i have to play festivals (biggest one) so we have to make music for it"
of course i am not clear and articulate and blablabla but this subject is a very interesting one !
as an artist i will be very sad to be that much constrained to such external factor (where i will play)
but if you think of it twice , sometimes artists are/were commissioned ( just think of the tate modern museum ) but here with music it will be not by someone outside but yourself ( your idea about your audience)
well your own definition about who you are as a musician

well well well i will stop now and think of it just for myself

Good questions. And I think, (imo of course), that is is pretty safe to say that, while the band, under the control of their record label, were obliged to take these things into consideration for commercial reasons, the purpose of the Riverrun Project has been to shed those shackles and release the kind of music that comes from their soul, not from some label's wallet.

In this, they still manage sellout gigs, which, in itself, is a barometer of their popularity. OK, it goes without saying that Nuxx is still the choon that gets the wildest crowd response, but having attended 5 gigs over the last 18 months, I can testify to the fact that new material is as popular with the crowds as any of the older, more established numbers.

They still have it. There has been a shift in their style, but they still have the pulling power to fill the halls and the fields. And I maintain that Mr Sherburne, for all his popularity "the other side of the pond", has kind of missed the point by apparently ignoring the recent releases, and is judging the band by what he percieves to be past failures and successes in his opinion as a minimal techno fetishist, (not that I have anything against minimal - on the contrary), and is not comparing like with like, but like with what he would like.

[adam]

1) I kind of lost interest in Underworld as of AHDO, personally. It may not reflect much on the music, but on my changing tastes, but I just don't find that album terribly engaging. It is so safe...however, hearing Trim live in the Peel sessions really changed my opinion on that song (for the better), so I will happily grant that there may be more to the album than I have an interest in looking for. I've heard none of the Riverrun stuff because I don't trust any of you fanboys' opinions on it enough to want to pay for it. No offense, but you're all stupid jerks.

2) Duckie's comment was spot-on. King of Snake posted a non-comment: it didn't offer anything whatsoever to the discussion about the article, which anybody here, regardless of their education, should be able to do. That is, whether you agree with it or not, you should be able to form those thoughts into coherent statements: who the fuck, why should we care, yeah, totally, whatever statements serve no function. Duckie was calling him out on that. Duckie offered an article for discussion. He wouldn't have cared if people disagreed with it, but the response he got was the equivalent of making farting noises with your armpit, and I don't think he's out of line for pointing that out as precisely what it is.

3) The idea that Duckie should have voiced that criticism is a nicer fashion is one that I understand the reasoning behind, but that I don't wholeheartedly agree with. The problem being that this isn't real life. Years ago, I would have argued with that, and said, "Of course it's real life! How could it be anything else?" The thing is, I think, in real life, we should be as nice to each other as we can manage (with all types of qualifications that are tangental). But the thing is, here, in this artificial, world-spanning discussion forum, adopting those tactics makes the forums worthless. It is the only control mechanism we have. Unfortunately, I seem to be at the limits of my ability to articulate this idea. I'll have to think about it more.

I guess I'll make an immediate attempt to illustrate my point one other way. Imagine that we were sitting in a cafe, discussing this piece of music criticism (because we're intellectual snobs). Now, imagine somebody overheard us, and came over, and offered his two cents in the manner of "Who the fuck is this? Why the fuck should I care? Whatever, man." This is what we have, in the forums, is an artificial environment in which any one who wants to participate in a discussion feels free to do so. But if that's what they're bringing to the table, they better be prepared to be called on it. The notion you're presenting, BB, that we should just all nod our heads and stroke our chins at that outburst out of respect is really kind of odd, to me. You're objecting to Kid Duck's tone, I think, more than what he was saying, but, that fictional person in the cafe chose to walk up and participate, and chose to participate in that fashion.

I think the environment of the internet makes someone presenting their opinion in that fashion much more likely (than the equivalent cafe example), and, that precise increased likelihood in turn increases the need for an emphatic response (calling bullshit). Regardless, if this were to happen to me in a cafe, I certainly wouldn't mince words in telling someone what I thought of their contribution.

Anyway, I've argued with Duck Q myself, and his criticism of my arguments has changed the way I think about things, a bit, though it made me mad at the time, so I for one am all for it.

And, lastly, King of Snake, I'm sorry to pick on you repeatedly in this example. I'm trying to comment more on BB and Cuekie's exchange than anything you said. I think your comment wasn't useful, certainly, but there's no value in beating that dead horse.

[viddy]

It's Duckie, you'll never be right and he'll always be smarter than you!

[Tom]

Hay guys wats up?

[BeautifulBurnout]

Adam: While I can see where you are coming from, in your cafe analogy, KoS isn't "someone overhearing" but (as a prolific poster to the forum) is part of the group sitting round having the discussion. If Duckie had said "KoS, you point of view is crap because actually what Sherburne is saying is XYZ and you have to admit that there is some cogent argument in there" there wouldn't have been an issue, afaiac.

What he actually said, to bring it down to the lowest common denominator, is: "KoS - (and he singled KoS out for particular criticism, and not for the first time, from a multitude of short, knee-jerk responses, my own included) - Sherburn is awesome, he has opened for Michael Meyer and he writes a lot about techno, so that makes him worthy of respect, and you are dork for not realising that."

Maybe I am just too much of a hippy, maybe I am so old that I have learnt that you don't attract flies with vinegar, I dunno. But imo Duckie's response at this stage was just as daft as anyone elses. And with the (little) knowledge I have gleaned as a result of his past posts in his previous incarnation, it is evident that he is considerably more articulate and intelligent than to just base his response on something so shallow. Unless he was playing "flush the fanboy" for his own amusement and that of others.

I may be conpletely wrong, and I apologise if I am. But I will maintain my position that, if someone is obliged to resort to personal attack, they have lost the argument.

Let's argue about the content, not the people participating in the argument.

[adam]

Flush the Fanboy doesn't come out until 3rd quarter 2007. Rumour is PS3 only, but we know how that's been going.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by BeautifulBurnout

What he actually said, to bring it down to the lowest common denominator, is: "KoS Sherburn is awesome, he has opened for Michael Meyer and he writes a lot about techno, so that makes him worthy of respect, and you are dork for not realising that."

What.

Originally Posted by BeautifulBurnout

Maybe I am just too much of a hippy

...

Originally Posted by BeautifulBurnout

[BeautifulBurnout]

OK!

So I am a bloody hippy!

Wanna make something of it?

(/me takes her jacket off and opens the door)

(Edit: And anyway, I saw Michael Meyer in Frankfurt in October and HE was fucking awesome, and he had Tobias Thomas opening for him who was 30 gzillion times more awesome than Sherburn who suxx0rz)

[BrotherLovesDub]

i've gone back and deleted my posts not on the subject of the article. it would be nice if the others would do the same and let's cut the cancer out of this thread and just focus on the content of the article. I feel like there are more important issues left to discuss re: UW in the year 2006.

How would the RRP's be perceived if they had been released under Mr. and Mrs. Christmas or some other pseudonym? Would the reaction be different if the artist name wasn't Underworld?

I don't believe Underworld have written tunes for a festival crowd since BF and i'd be surprised to know they actually cared when recording the tunes what they would sound like in front of 20K fans. With the exception of the AHDO gigs, UW change things up live and improvise, as we all know and love, so i don't think an album version gets crafted to suit a festival.

Am I a fan boy if I bought all the RRP's, barely listened to them, but want to support a couple guys doing something for the fans (releasing stuff on the cheap or free that would othewise go unreleased, making music to please themselves and still pushing the boundaries of their sound, having a semi-close relationship with the fans website and fan base in general? Well, if i am what you call a fanboy, so be it. I couldn't think of a nicer band to be fawning over. So what if I think their best ablum was released 13 years ago? I am happy to see them enjoying this stage of their career and respect the risks they've taken releasing ambient material digitally. The Breaking and Entering Soundtrack is gorgeous, btw. It's and ambient film score adn should be listened to with that in mind, but it's beautiful and evocative.

Or, I can just hop on the constantly changing Bandwagon of hipster music and bitch about UW for not writing Jumbo pt. 2 or another Born Slippy. Ultimately, the music you love when you're 16-25 is the music that will mean the most to you when you're 45. What Underworld have done since my fav. lp, Dubno, is not nearly as important to me as who they've become. I respect them as people and artists and look forward to hearing anything they decide to release. I may not always love it (see RRP, BF, half of AHDO) but i'll always have time to give it a chance.

That sentiment is where a review like Sherburne's doesn't reach. It is for the casual fan, but written from a voice of someone who is very familiar with their work. I believe Sherburne's knowledge of Underworld ends in 2002, precisely when the minimal techno trend started catching on worldwide. I don't believe he has the RRP's, the remixes, the Tokyo CD's or the inspiring Lemonworld shows or Cocoon set. Those things mark the direction of Underworld, not the album cuts on AHDO.

Along the same lines as the RRP's coming out under a pseudonym, if journalists would stop calling UW a techno act, the expectation of floorfillers and anthems would dissolve. UW are electronic musicians pursuing a different path to the one that made them famous. Not easy to do and pretty damn scary if you're used to earning a certain amount of money. I'd say, it's pretty damn repsectable too.

Has anyone seen Duckie? Wouldn't mind his opinion on the state of UW and the content of Sherburne's review.