French MPs vote to ban Islamic full veil in public

[Deckard]

One of those hot issues that seems to wind everyone up.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/10611398.stm

I hate the full veil (I look dreadful in it) but I'm not sure I support it being banned. If it's going to be, then I think it should be banned along with other clothing that, depending on the ultimate reason, fall under the same criteria.

For instance, if the issue is one of security and of the need to see people's faces in public buildings (a not unreasonable one, I think), then ban anything that covers the face in those instances - low-hanging hoodies, balaclavas, Jedi masks, whatever. Or better still, just have the rule that 'faces should not be covered in public buildings'.

If it's about emphasizing the secular nature of the state, then I'm inclined to think the government should royally feck off! The point being, secularism and enforced irreligiosity are not the same thing. Yes I roll my eyes when I see women wandering around Cardiff in their niqabs and hijabs, and silently despair at how silly people are still clinging to all that nonsense in the 21st century - but secularism should surely be about people being free to express, within reasonable limits, their religious views in any way they choose; not about removing the insignia of religion (or religion-based culture) and attempting to make everyone - at least on the surface - non-religious.

Which leaves us with the big one, women's rights, and the notion of the niqab and burka as the most visible symbol of a certain view of women pervasive in much of Islamic culture. And the question is, what do you do when many of the women themselves insist that they are not oppressed and that it's their right to cover their head/face? I'm truly not sure which is worse: the government stepping in and telling women what (not) to wear, or letting it continue.

Maybe it shouldn't be banned but just needs to be challenged more vigorously.

But how, and by whom?

Thoughts?

[bryantm3]

this all boils down to the terrible racism against muslims and others of middle eastern descent in france. like it or not, the french are doing to muslims what the south did to blacks in the 50s.

[Deckard]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

this all boils down to the terrible racism against muslims and others of middle eastern descent in france. like it or not, the french are doing to muslims what the south did to blacks in the 50s.

While I wouldn't personally compare it with "racism" against blacks, I do understand what you're saying and agree with you in this respect: that the motivation behind a lot of the public opposition isn't quite as rational as it's made out to be.

I know in this country (the UK) when I hear this topic being discussed, it doesn't take long to realise that women's rights and secularism aren't the overriding concerns of the anti-veilers (unless the far right parties and the great conservative British public have suddenly decided that it's time to ditch religion and fight the feminist cause )

No question about it, a lot of public opposition seems to boil down to little more than "these foreign looking people with their foreign ways, coming into our country... " etc etc). Really, I get the impression that narrow-mindedness and bigotry have a large but silent part in this 'debate'.

But while legitimate reasons are being bandied around, it's still worth examining whether there really is a real case to be made for a ban. As I say, I'm not convinced.

[bryantm3]

there are no legitimate reasons... it's totally barbaric to ban certain types of clothing, religious or not. i know a lot of the right over here in the states are whining about socialism, but the europeans are moving way too close to authoritarianism when the government has the power to do this type of thing. this would never happen in the united states, the laws and bureaucracy aren't even set up for this type of psychotic control over people's personal lives.

[bas_I_am]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

this would never happen in the united states, the laws and bureaucracy aren't even set up for this type of psychotic control over people's personal lives.

alphretta, ga???

I suggest you check your local laws. . .

I bet that, except on halloween, mardi gras, and new years eve, wearing a mask in public is unlawful.

At least it is here, in fairfax county virginia.

I hazard a guess, the same is true in most metropolitan areas of the US.

[Deckard]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

i know a lot of the right over here in the states are whining about socialism, but the europeans are moving way too close to authoritarianism

While it achieved broad cross-party support in France, it's interesting to note that the calls to ban it are coming more strongly from the right than the left, both there and here, despite the fact that it's so often the left that has the reputation for 'nanny state-ism' (no surprise to those who recognize that authoritarianism and socialism are two different concepts).

And from this, back to my questioning of motives - if Conservative MP Philip Hollobone has a reputation for championing women's rights or campaignign for secularism, I must have missed it.

The truth is, for a large part this is being fuelled by the typically British xenophobic, illiberal and pompous attitude of "When in Rome..." - by mean-spiritedness and tribalism. But very few in the wider public debate dares to acknowledge this (ironically ...for fear of causing offence to mean-spirited sour-faced bores! But of course we don't call it political correctness when dodging offence occurs that way round, do we?)

[Sean]

I find this kind of ban to be offensive. It's clearly not motivated by women's rights concerns, any more than opposition to the building of mosques in a number of states here in the U.S. is.

"Mosque construction plans have encountered resistance nationwide in recent months. Proposals to build mosques in Tennessee, Wisconsin and near ground zero in New York have all been met with protests.

'When churches decide to expand or build facilities, what's the purpose behind that?' asked Affad Sheikh, civil rights manager with the Greater Los Angeles Area chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations. 'Why is this question being asked of the Muslim community?'"

and...

The mosque would be built next to Calvary Baptist Church. Pastor Bill Rench worries the mosque is too large for the site.

But he said he's particularly concerned about what he described as "the whole issue of Islam and what it stands for."

"It's certainly a religion that is not only different but contrary to Christianity," he said.

"Where it's dominant, religious freedom goes out the window ... the message of Islam is the spread of Islam by whatever means necessary."

Putting the mosque next to Calvary is "almost like trying to put oil and water together," Rench added.


The longer all these debates rage on, the more it becomes apparent to me that the opposition to Islamic veils, or mosques, or whatever else Islam-related is motivated by ignorance and flat-out bigotry. I'm getting sick to death of it.

Sorry Deckard - I don't mean to hijack the thread into mosque-protest-land. I only posted it because it seemed somewhat pertinent to the discussion.

[bas_I_am]

http://www.anapsid.org/cnd/mcs/maskcodes.html

[bas_I_am]

Originally Posted by bas_I_am

http://www.anapsid.org/cnd/mcs/maskcodes.html

After thinking about it. . . I am willing to bet US$100 that wearing a mask in public is illegal in Georgia.

Most likely a a measure to curb the actions of the KKK.

[bryantm3]

have you ever heard of dragoncon? wearing a masque in public is not illegal...