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Old 02-21-2011, 05:09 AM
issue 37
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: South Wales
Posts: 1,244
Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
Btw, what's also illogical - or unreasonable - are statements such as...

Originally Posted by human151
European liberal cultures and Islam are incompatible.

Originally Posted by human151
How can a devout muslim still practice their religion and still assimilate to the larger culture? Answer: they can't
Tell these things to our country's Muslim soldiers deployed on the front line in Afghanistan. Soldiers like Pte Shehab El-Din Ahmed El-Miniaw:

"My home is the UK. As a Muslim, that's the place I'd happily die for and kill for. That's the same way it's going to remain until my dying day. My entire soul belongs to the UK and I'm more than proud to fight for this country."

I doubt he thinks "the muslim religion is the polar opposite to liberalism" or that he "can't practice [his] religion and still assimilate to the larger culture". I'm sure he has absolutely no problem in "considering himself British" - and Muslim.

Or are you going to take the EDL line and claim that he's not a real Muslim? (a line, incidentally, also taken by extremist and more conservative Muslims.)

Perhaps you will try to defend yourself by reminding us that you never said all Muslims are extremist. True. You haven't been that crass. But in that case, your above statements are therefore baloney, are they not?

Perhaps you will point out all the bloodthirsty parts of the Qu'ran prove your point. But they do no such thing if there are a majority of Muslims who reject/ignore/re-interpret them, just as a majority of Jews reject/ignore/re-interpret the bloodthirsty parts of the Torah.

Perhaps at this point you will remind us that there are more Muslim extremists/Islamic literalists than Jewish or Christian. But I'll remind you that it doesn't matter to the argument - if the majority integrate just fine, then how does that prove Islam and liberal cultures are incompatible? As should be blatantly obvious by now, not everyone agrees on a single interpretation of Islam (though of course many like to insist that only their interpretation is the correct/true/reasonable one). The fact of the matter is that the British gay Muslims taking part in Islamic weddings are just as much Muslims as a member of the LGBT Christian Association is a Christian.

Finally, just so we can clear this up...
Originally Posted by human151
The least [immigrants] could do is try to adapt, just a little, to the new coutries' culture. But a very large percentage of muslims choose to live as if they're still in a muslim country.
Define "very large percentage".

Note: I don't expect you to tell me what percentage of Muslims "choose to live as if they're still in a Muslim country". I just want you to tell me what kind of percentage range you are defining as "very large". About 80-100%?

Tell me that, then we will move onto what you mean by "live as if they're still in a Muslim country"...

And this time, please - address the points I'm making and the questions I'm asking, instead of completely ignoring them each time and firing off your own questions at me.