[Sean]

Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j

I never said it was a biiiiig fucking problem, but it's not a good thing now is it? Like, ultimately I think we ought to make the immigration process a little easier than just kicking them out. I realize the whole argument is "they take the jobs no one wants" but that's a little difficult right now...our unemployment rate is huge and there are plenty of people who want those jobs.

I and probably many other folks here saw an interview on the Colbert Report a couple weeks ago with the President of the Untied Farm Workers, Arturo Rodriquez. He's put together a website called www.takeourjobs.org, which offers a direct way for anyone willing to apply for a farming job currently being worked by immigrants - many illegal - to do so. As of the time of the interview, they had only received a couple applicants. And in reports I've seen on CNN, they've gone to some California farms and asked how many caucasians have ever applied for work, only for the foreman to tell them he's never had any apply. So if people want these jobs, they aren't making their desire known.

Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j

Anyway what exactly do you mean "smear an entire ethnic group"? Is that what you think I'm doing? I mean it's not exactly the Canadians causing these problems is it? I'm not saying Russian drug violence in America isn't a problem or that we don't have our own drug problems, but we're not exactly leiniant on those issues so I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. Ultimately this bill is really just going to give police officers (half of which are Mexican, by the way) the power to enforce the law as written. The point of this is not "wow, we should do something about all the brown people" but rather "wow, we should do something about the fact that we're averaging one kidnapping per day in this state".

Lots of points in here. One, while you may not be trying to "smear an entire ethnic group", that's exactly what SB1070 will result in, whether intentional or not. A law that dictates police must verify the immigration status of people they have "reasonable suspicion" towards, in a state that shares a border with Mexico, will inevitably result in everyone of Mexican heritage who's approached by a cop likely being put in a position of having to defend their legal status. Especially when SB1070 stipulates that any citizen witnessing a cop NOT verifying immigration status can sue that cop.

Secondly, despite insistence to the contrary by supporters of SB1070, this bill does NOT mirror federal law. The two stipulations I highlighted above about "reasonable suspicion" and citizens being able to sue cops that they don't feel are being stringent enough, are both unique to Arizona's bill. And beyond that, they are precisely what will be most destructive to the basic civil rights of American citizens of Mexican heritage.

Lastly, your statement declaring "the fact that we're averaging one kidnapping per day in this state" is a bit misleading in that it seems to imply that random illegal immigrants are coming into the United States and kidnapping random U.S. citizens. But according to what I've seen and heard, the issue is all thanks to the drug cartels dealing with collection issues and such through kidnappings of those who owe them money. And beyond that, many of the people who are kidnapping victims in Arizona are actually illegal immigrants who are then ransomed back to their families in Mexico - who are of course relatively helpless in doing anything about it through legal channels. And finally, virtually every other crime in Arizona has seen a drop-off in frequency, which further isolates the drug cartels as the root of any crime problems. So why not try exploring effective ways to deal with the specific issue of drug violence rather than a fundamentally flawed bill targeting all immigrants?

Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j

If you don't think illegals are a problem don't you feel that we should just open the borders entirely? How would you see that working out?

This always seems to get boiled down to an all-or-nothing argument, and I don't think it does the legitimate debate to be had any good. Illegals need a more reasonable path to citizenship if they've demonstrated that they're just here to work and be good, law-abiding citizens, as the vast majority are. It has been objectively observed that illegal immigrants have had a small net positive influence on our economy, and that virtually every city with a heavy population of illegal immigrants enjoys lower overall crime rates than cities without.

Originally Posted by 34958hq439-qjw9v5jq298v5j

Once again I feel like 90% of the reaction to this is the same type of hysteria we had with the Patriot Act 8 years ago...yes it gives the government some pretty scary power but in the end they're not going to just use it on random innocents to read their emails. I don't get the impression that they're going to be just randomly taking brown people to jail because of this bill either. Because the lawmakers KNOW what they're getting into with this bill; they know that AZ has a huge Latino population and most of those guys vote. You do know that Latino people are projected to overtake Causasians in America population-wise by 2050, right? Don't you realize how incredibly dumb it would be for any politician to anger that group?

Dumb behavior by politicians? Imagine that!