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stimpee 10-02-2010 01:18 PM

Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archive...vote_again.php
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11438581
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11459404

Dutch party gives nod to coalition deal with Wilders

A pact to allow Dutch centre-right parties to form a government with the support of anti-Islamist populist Geert Wilders has cleared another hurdle. The Christian Democrats (CDA) ratified the deal at a meeting on Saturday by 68% in favour, with 32% opposed. As part of its programme, the government will ban the full Islamic veil in the Netherlands, parties say.

Dutch coalition deal involving Wilders takes shape

Dutch conservative parties have moved closer to a coalition deal hinging on the support of the anti-Islam party of Geert Wilders.MPs from the Dutch Liberal Party accepted the deal, which ends months of deadlock, after it was approved by MPs from Mr Wilders' Freedom Party. The Christian Democrats are due to take a final decision by Saturday. Mr Wilders said earlier that even if his party did not enter government it would still have "enormous influence".

Under the deal, Dutch Liberal Party (VVD) leader Mark Rutte is set to become prime minister, forming a cabinet with Maxime Verhagen's Christian Democrats (CDA). With just 52 seats between the two parties in the 150-seat parliament, they propose to form a minority government, which would rely on the Freedom Party's 24 seats to pass legislation by a tiny margin.Mr Wilders is due to stand trial next week on charges of hate speech for allegedly insulting Islam.

froopy seal 10-04-2010 04:05 AM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
I remember being shocked that Wilders and his bunch scored so many seats. Admittedly, he seems to be intelligent and charismatic. In Germany we still have more than enough hateful, revisionist nutheads, some of them of a make similar to Wilders (the late Jürgen Rieger comes to mind).

What is it that people, voters see in those figures? Is it only the socially deprived, the unemployed, the bitter who are caught by those parties' hate speeches? A feeling of "Wow, there's somebody to oppose the corrupt establishment"? The imagination of "Finally, my vote is going to make a difference" (not caring about the contents of the party's programme)? Fear and selfishness, resulting in the hope that the banishment and discrimination of certain portions of culture and people will grant oneself an advantage in the struggle for relative wealth?

Or is it genuine xenophobia, ignorance and malice?

bryantm3 10-14-2010 02:35 AM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
it's fairly well known that europeans hate muslims (more than we do, lol) and jews. don't ask me why, but it's pretty consistent over time; it's not a new thing: see the banning of ritual slaughter in many european countries going back to the 30s and 40s.

froopy seal 10-16-2010 07:35 AM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bryantm3 (Post 146238)
it's fairly well known that europeans hate muslims (more than we do, lol) and jews. don't ask me why, but it's pretty consistent over time; it's not a new thing: see the banning of ritual slaughter in many european countries going back to the 30s and 40s.

Don't want to go too deep into the new-world-old-world-hate thing, buuuut this seems, if I may say so, a little, ahh, too straightforward for my taste...

lloyd 10-16-2010 04:44 PM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
it's bollocks too
For instance, You can't buy veal meat in .nl which isn't halal / kosher.
What is forbidden, like in lots of other countries, is home slaughter under non-controled conditions. BSE amongst other health reasons and ethical/animal rights got us laws for that. Not religion.

Mister Wilders, to our luck, isn't too smart (although he is intelligent). His press outings are clumsy and his attacks on others is trowing mud expressed in streetlingo. Should he be a smooth talker like say a Tony Blair, and spill the same hate he dos now, then he would have a mass following.
Now most votes were against the sitting government and traditional parties.

And now those voters have what they voted for, a minority government supported by Wilders and his party. A problem in the making.

Eikman 10-16-2010 06:24 PM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bryantm3 (Post 146238)
it's fairly well known that europeans hate muslims (more than we do, lol) and jews.

you gotta be fucking kiddin me.

Dunwho 10-16-2010 07:27 PM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bryantm3 (Post 146238)
it's fairly well known that europeans hate muslims (more than we do, lol) and jews. don't ask me why, but it's pretty consistent over time; it's not a new thing: see the banning of ritual slaughter in many european countries going back to the 30s and 40s.

I cant get my head around on how many levels.. that whole statement... start to finish.. is more a reflection of YOU rather than Europeans... i hope that was a joke... cus if it wasnt it was fairly retarded... ... no in fact scratch that... its very very retarded..

bryantm3 10-17-2010 11:37 PM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lloyd (Post 146352)
it's bollocks too
For instance, You can't buy veal meat in .nl which isn't halal / kosher.
What is forbidden, like in lots of other countries, is home slaughter under non-controled conditions. BSE amongst other health reasons and ethical/animal rights got us laws for that. Not religion.

the 'government endorsed' method of slaughter involves shooting a nail into the brain of the animal, spreading brain matter throughout the rest of the animal. you tell me how that is more safe than the traditional method. sounds either nanny state or anti-semetic.

i'm not saying the US doesn't have its problems. out west (and here in the south as well, but GA is kind of more the 'southeast' than it is like TX, LA, MS, etc.) there is a lot of racism towards immigrant (and non-immigrant) hispanics, and it's completely intolerable by me. i went with my family to buy a car a couple of years ago, and the guy who did a test drive with us started making these broad-sweeping statements about hispanics, and we decided we'd never go back there again, forget buying their car.

but as much as the US is known for it's racism against hispanics, europe is known for its racism against muslims and jews. i mean, look at france for goodness' sake. they've treated the algerians who have been there for generations like second class citizens for a very long time. if you want proof look at the riots a few years back.

the same thing goes for banning kippot, taqiyah, islamic veils, etc. over the past few years. it's not 'separation of church and state', it's removal of basic human rights through thinly-veiled racism.

stimpee 10-18-2010 01:44 AM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bryantm3 (Post 146402)
the 'government endorsed' method of slaughter involves shooting a nail into the brain of the animal, spreading brain matter throughout the rest of the animal. you tell me how that is more safe than the traditional method. sounds either nanny state or anti-semetic.

EU has had cartridge based captive bolt stunning for around 15 years. Unlike the pneumatic based bolt stunning, it doesnt carry the risk of brain matter being spread into the animal. Pneumatic bolt stunning is banned in the EU, but not in the USA.

Not sure what the tight BSE-related EU regulations on animal slaughter have to do with Geert Wilders but carry on. I think the proportion of people active in ritual slaughter of animals in the Netherlands is very very small. The Netherlands is a massive producer of (halal) food on a big scale.

lloyd 10-18-2010 12:05 PM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
I said your perception of the truth in the .eu is false. And I will continue to say that.
The practice here in Holland is that all industrial produced veal is slaughtered under such conditions that it can be sold as kosher or halal. It's a fact, not a anti jewish tought I did come up with while wearing a brown shirt marching up and down the street.
I don't care what is save or not, I hate live animals on my plate. They have to be killed and if that is done under the watchfull eye of the Goth of tingaling I don't give a flying fart. It has to lay still in my pan.
While there was lots of problems with 'bad' meat on our markets we got laws who and where animals could be slaughtered and who is to controle what goes into the market.
Hormone treated cows were a commen sight here in the south of .nl and in Belgium. A whole maffia was controlling the meat industry. Murders were commited over this. It's good we got laws to regulate slaughter. (still no religious reasons, see?)
Now... because the dutch are always in for profit, in our slaughterhouses, ALL veal is first sedated with a blast of air. NOT A GUN Not a metal pin through the brain. Then it is processed and this can be done according to islamic, dabh, rules or jewish, shechita, rules. Everybody gets their veal the way they want it here in Holland. How is that anti religious? Where do I or any other person make this anti-semitic? Ignorance on your side.
While in the 70/80's (and it still happens very sporadically) there were cases of sheep/lamb slaughtering on little balconies of flats, in sheds or in the woods etc, by people who didn't think they could get their animal processed by their standards, animal rights people asked our government to stop this. Of course people who hate other people for their religion took this with both hands to spread their hate.
Nowdays you buy a sheep or lamb (with a known history) of a farmer and can have it processed at organised and (health)controlled temporairy slaughterhouses or special days IN official slaughterhouses during festivities. Yes your trailer can be checked at roadworthiness, if there's water for the animals, being asked how long your journey will be with the animals....
So.... tell me what is banned since 1930's by our supposed Nazi goverment?
There are tons of Kosher or Halal shops and butchers in Holland. Even in my tiny town (< 5000 people) there was a Halal food shop years before there was a pizza/kebab restaurant, still no MacDonalds or Subway or Starbucks here.
What is banned I ask you again? You stated that it was banned..

Nothing wrong with all this I think? Nanny state... well looking away when health and ethics are treathend is stupid too. How it is regulated nowdays was reached with all involved, not pressed upon the people who in the 70s weren't aware or able of the possiblity of getting the right meat. It did grow out of need. And is within Dutch laws.
Bloodthirsty people who see a hobby in killing whales or elephants in their own kitchen at industrial level while running around naked shouting curses at the goth of Ob-La-Di are to pity, I give you that. <sarcasm>

Of the fragmented news of ALL european countries you cherrypick you can't form an idea of what goes on here. Yes there is and was and always will be anti semitic and anti islamic and, which you forgot to talk about, anti christian shit going on.
In my liberal country, most people lead THEIR lives. There are people who fully follow rules of their believes, but that is a minority. Also everybody is free here, feminism set women (more) free. Some rules in peoples believes collide with our liberal laws/rules/habbits and we vent that. And will continue to do so. Nothing wrong with that I hope?
We think that strict cultural or religious rules prohibiting people from exploring their own possibilities in this world is wrong.
This took us ages to understand and reach and it is hard for us to see that other people in this world are still under threat of health or life when or if they try to explore their personality.
Understanding the question of the banning of religious artifacts within public positions takes a whole study I think. Not only rightwingers asked to ban the burqa etc, also women-right groups did. And those are very leftwing I can tell you.
Separation of church and state is a thing 1000s of people died fighting for here in (most of) Europa. Another study worth I think. We already, in holland, have an uncontrolled level in our democratic system, being our Queen, there is no need to have any uncontrollable church involved at any level.
Yeah you can downplay all that and shout hidden racism, the almost always working easy and cheap way out of a discussion because of running out of facts and arguments due to ignorance of the real world.
Under dutch law it is forbidden to drive your car while being disguised. Has been for ages. So it already is forbidden to drive a car while wearing a burqa. Nazi law? nah, just happens to be in our lawbooks and collide with everyday 2010.
Will this stand in court? I don't think so. In the south during carnaval, 10000s of people ride their cars to and from pubs and bars wearing masks or greasepaint and aren't stopped by police for that fact.

Europa isn't full of haters. It's the few haters that get media attention (hello FOX telly) you take for 16 million dutch people.

15,5% of the people voted for Wilders because the other parties failed in their eyes.
Wilders promised pension age would stay 65 where other parties said moving up to 67. A large % of votes came from just that fact. Suprise suprise, mister wilders was willing to take 66 or 67 if that point would be the reason a goverment with his party couldn't be formed (3 parties were needed to get majority) the day after the elections. So those voters are f*cked already.
He wants 3000 extra policemen, also this got him lots of votes. Those voters will be let down when this comes to parliament because it won't happen.

Is there hate, yes. Is there ignorance towards other habbits yes, loads more then hate. Are there 99.99% of the people who 364.99 days of the year don't give a sh*t what other people do or think and just want a quite night in, no nagging wife, feed their children, etc etc. I think that's more likely. What ever religion or cultural background they have, that is everyday life.

David Bowie: I'm afraid of Americans

bryantm3 10-23-2010 02:19 AM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
i'll admit, i don't know much about the netherlands. most of what i was talking about was in reference to france, so forgive me for making broad-sweeping statements.

i also would like to note the difference between halal and kosher. there are more muslims in the EU, and there are more jews here, so understanding of those laws cross-atlantic is probably difficult for those that aren't jewish or muslim.

the kosher laws basically make it so that it is pretty much impossible to make all meat kosher. every animal has to be inspected to make sure it isn't sick, and even afterwards the lungs must be checked. within 24 hours, all blood has to be removed from the meat through salting and rinsing. halal is much more lenient, as it only requires a ritual slaughter. kosher involves that and the things listed above. to make all meat kosher would require a lot of time and resources, and it wouldn't be practical to make kosher meat widely available outside the US and israel. i'm not making a case that europe is anti-semitic based on this fact, but i thought i should add that there is a difference between halal and kosher.

back to my argument, however, i guess i kind of mixed in my dislike for the limitations of personal expression in europe with my argument against anti-semitism.

i guess that my main point is that europe over the past twenty or so years has set up precedent to remove basic civil liberties with its move towards more socialistic policies (not saying this is a good or a bad thing, just stating what is true). as europe is moving towards those policies, civil liberties get in the way, it's just a fact. so you are slowly seeing things such as cameras on street corners, cameras that snap a picture of your license plate if you are going too fast, strict limitations on hate speech, etc. for better or for worse, we don't have these things in the united states so there is no precedent. however, europe has created a precedent that the wrong sort of people who get in power can use to impose other limitations on personal expression, such as the wearing of a burkha.

i don't really think that there are more racists in europe, but i really do think that they have more ability to pass racist laws based on legal precedent than we would in the US. for example, no one in the US would have a leg to stand on trying to pass a ban on burkhas, because the precedent in the US is to allow all forms of speech and expression, whether they pose harm to society or not (we have no hate speech laws in the US. the only laws we have are against inciting riots, which is the difference between someone saying 'i hate muslims' and 'lets go lynch the muslims'. obviously, there is not much difference in intent, but in action there is a huge difference). the ACLU would immediately battle it in court and would most likely win.

froopy seal 10-24-2010 10:56 AM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Thanks for clarifying your point, Bryant. That sounds a lot more coherent than your first, shortened rambling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bryantm3 (Post 146580)
back to my argument, however, i guess i kind of mixed in my dislike for the limitations of personal expression in europe with my argument against anti-semitism.

i guess that my main point is that europe over the past twenty or so years has set up precedent to remove basic civil liberties with its move towards more socialistic policies (not saying this is a good or a bad thing, just stating what is true). as europe is moving towards those policies, civil liberties get in the way, it's just a fact. so you are slowly seeing things such as cameras on street corners, cameras that snap a picture of your license plate if you are going too fast, strict limitations on hate speech, etc. for better or for worse, we don't have these things in the united states so there is no precedent. however, europe has created a precedent that the wrong sort of people who get in power can use to impose other limitations on personal expression, such as the wearing of a burkha.

I agree that in the States freedom of expression does indeed traditionally have a far greater weight than in Europe, especially compared to Germany with all its bans on free speech due to the Nazi history.

On the other hand, we Europeans have a far greater sensitivy concerning personal data and privacy - which again may constrain freedom of speech (both rights frequently oppose one another in a legal weighting). As a result, "anti-terror" legislation and general powers of American secret services seem to have a considerably more restrictive effect on personal immersion into information technologies, or at least grant authorities an excessive enforcement arsenal, with little monitoring by parliaments and courts. Platitudes such as the SWIFT Agreement, the Passenger Name Records (PNR) Agreement, the level of US privacy law in general (as assessed by the European Commission under the 1995 EU Directive on Data Protection), and revealing social network default preferences come to mind.

human151 01-14-2011 10:48 PM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bryantm3 (Post 146402)
the 'government endorsed' method of slaughter involves shooting a nail into the brain of the animal, spreading brain matter throughout the rest of the animal. you tell me how that is more safe than the traditional method. sounds either nanny state or anti-semetic.

i'm not saying the US doesn't have its problems. out west (and here in the south as well, but GA is kind of more the 'southeast' than it is like TX, LA, MS, etc.) there is a lot of racism towards immigrant (and non-immigrant) hispanics, and it's completely intolerable by me. i went with my family to buy a car a couple of years ago, and the guy who did a test drive with us started making these broad-sweeping statements about hispanics, and we decided we'd never go back there again, forget buying their car.

but as much as the US is known for it's racism against hispanics, europe is known for its racism against muslims and jews. i mean, look at france for goodness' sake. they've treated the algerians who have been there for generations like second class citizens for a very long time. if you want proof look at the riots a few years back.

the same thing goes for banning kippot, taqiyah, islamic veils, etc. over the past few years. it's not 'separation of church and state', it's removal of basic human rights through thinly-veiled racism.


The US is known for racism against hispanics? Are you fucking kidding me?

THe main problem with the muslims in france is that they don't want to be French. If you're going to move to a new country atleast respect the culture of the country your moving to. Immigrants usually immigrate somewhere for a better life, and with hard work they usually get a better life. The least they could do is try to adapt, just a little, to the new coutries' culture. But a very large percentage of muslims choose to live as if they're still in a muslim country. I went to London recently and say many muslim women walking around with the black costume all over their body and face. Even if you disagree with me, you must admit this is disrespectful to the established culture. There are even so called "no go zones".

"Islamic extremists have created "no-go" areas across Britain where it is too dangerous for non-Muslims to enter, one of the Church of England's most senior bishops warns"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...n-Muslims.html

Things like this is very respectful to a country which has allowed people from another culture to immigrate there.

Deckard 01-15-2011 11:45 AM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by human151
If you're going to move to a new country atleast respect the culture of the country your moving to.... I went to London recently and say many muslim women walking around with the black costume all over their body and face. Even if you disagree with me, you must admit this is disrespectful to the established culture.

Oh come on Chris, does it really matter whether clothing is or is not considered respectful to a country's "established culture"? (whatever that is)

This isn't North Korea where fashions have to be officially sanctioned.

The only thing I particularly give a stuff about are intolerant values, medieval attitudes, exemptions to the rule of law, and hate - ie. I don't want to see the propagation of those things, least of all where I live. And if the full veil is being forced on the woman, then yes I give a stuff about that. If someone is demanding an exemption from a legitimate rule (e.g. hygienic dress code in hospitals, facial visibility in certain situations, etc) because it's "not their culture" or "their religion insists otherwise" (and if a reasonable and satisfactory compromise can't be reached), then yes I give a stuff about that - and I would have no problem saying "Sorry, but adapt, or bugger off!"

But do you know what? I really do not care one way or the other whether someone wears something different to the established culture, eats something different to the established culture, or celebrates something different to the established culture.

And here's the crux: it doesn't matter whether the person deviating from the established culture was born here or whether they emigrated here from Abu Dhabi. Once they are living here, the same FREEDOMS apply. Including the freedom to take part in customs and traditions of a birth country or any other country.

The logical extension of that is that a woman of Pakistani origin should have the freedom to wear traditionally Pakistani clothing.

Do you see what I'm saying?

Assuming I'm not denied the freedom to wear a sari (should I feel the itch), then neither should an immigrant be denied that same freedom just because that particular garment may have originated in their country of birth.

IF there is a sense that immigrants are bringing their culture - their dress code, their recipes, and so on - from their birth country to their new country - then so what? If people like it, the country will embrace it (e.g. curry, Britain's unofficial national dish). If not, it will remain a minority phenomenon.

And that's entirely as it should be.

The full veil, I think it's safe to say, has other issues tied up with it - issues that have been raised in another thread like security, subjugation of women, and so on. And I suppose on a more fundamental level there is something understandable about the desire to see another person's face, at least in some circumstances. But those issues should be debated and evaluated quite separately to the issues of immigration and multiculturalism. They should, in other words, be debated on their own merit.

Unfortunately, most of the debate - at least in the right wing dominated press - is taking place at a very tribal level of "these funny-looking foreigners bringing their funny ways to our country."

Most of it is ill-disguised racist and xenophobic nonsense.

Deckard 01-15-2011 11:52 AM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by human151
There are even so called "no go zones".

So where exactly are these "no go zones" for non-Muslims? Which streets? After all, the Bishop of Rochester never managed to back up that remark with anything resembling evidence. Three years on and still nothing. Certainly there are some areas that have undergone an extraordinary transformation and are now dominated by people of Pakistani and Bangladeshi origin, dress, culture and worship - but for him to speak about "no go zones" for non-Muslims was just inflammatory rhetoric - and it's sad to see people repeating it unquestioningly.

human151 01-15-2011 03:55 PM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Deckard (Post 148740)
So where exactly are these "no go zones" for non-Muslims? Which streets? After all, the Bishop of Rochester never managed to back up that remark with anything resembling evidence. Three years on and still nothing. Certainly there are some areas that have undergone an extraordinary transformation and are now dominated by people of Pakistani and Bangladeshi origin, dress, culture and worship - but for him to speak about "no go zones" for non-Muslims was just inflammatory rhetoric - and it's sad to see people repeating it unquestioningly.


Its nice to be back having intelligent debate with you all. I've known many of you for a long time. Its like meeting old friends, nevermind the fact that we don't actually know each other ;-).

back to point.

http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2006...ones-of-france

"Mar. 16, 2008 update: John Cornwell, a leading historian and commentator on religion, is generally skeptical of Nazir-Ali's no-go areas but finds that if anyplace fits the profile, it's Bury Park in Luton:
Luton, like other enclaves, has experienced a spate of incidents that look all too like attempts to make Bury Park a no-go area to non-Muslims. Between November of last year and last month there were 18 attacks – all registered by the police – on five non-Muslim homes in the area. One couple, Mr and Mrs Harrop, white residents in their eighties, have had bricks hurled through their windows. The home of Mrs Palmer, a widow of West Indian origin, aged 70, has been attacked four times; on one occasion a metal beer keg crashed through her bay window while she was watching TV."


---------


meanwhile in france:


http://sig.ville.gouv.fr/Atlas/ZUS/



They go by the euphemistic term Zones Urbaines Sensibles, or Sensitive Urban Zones, with the even more antiseptic acronym ZUS, and there are 751 of them as of last count. They are convienently listed on one long webpage, complete with street demarcations and map delineations.
What are they? Those places in France that the French state does not control. They range from two zones in the medieval town of Carcassone to twelve in the heavily Muslim town of Marseilles, with hardly a town in France lacking in its ZUS. The ZUS came into existence in late 1996 and according to a 2004 estimate, nearly 5 million people live in them.


Le décret n°96-1156 du 26 décembre 1996 fixe la liste de 750 Zones urbaines sensibles (Zus). Le décret n°2000- 796 du 24 août 2000 ajoute le quartier «Nouveau Mons» de Mons-en-Baroeul à la liste des Zus et le décret n°2001-707 du 31 juillet 2001 modifie le périmètre de la Zus de Grigny (91).

Les décrets n° 96-1157 et n° 96-1158 du 26 décembre 1996 fixent la liste des 416 Zones de redynamisation urbaine (ZRU) parmi les 751 Zones urbaines sensibles (396 en France métropolitaine, 20 dans les départements d’outre-mer).


Translated:




Decree No. 96-1156 of 26 December 1996 fixes the list of 750 sensitive urban zones (ZUS). Decree No. 2000 - 796 of 24 August 2000 the district added "New Mons» Mons-en-Baroeul to the list of Zus and Decree No. 2001-707 of 31 July 2001 amends the scope of Zus Grigny (91).







Decrees No. 96-1157 and No. 96-1158 of 26 December 1996 set list of the 416 urban renewal areas (ZRU) among the 751 urban areas susceptible (396 in France, 20 in the overseas departments ).


---------------------------------


Does it really matter what people wear? No it doesent, people are free to wear what ever they please. But when the clothing is specific to a culture and or religion there is a problem. Its almost as if these people are say "look at me I'm a muslim". Most other people dont go around advertising and differentiating themselves based on religion.



The problem is the number of immigrants. if the number is too large then people feel they do not have to assimilate themselves into the established culture. If the number were to continue to grow then what was once an established culture will become the inferior culture. Imagine if in 100 years, at the current immigration level and the immigrant birthrate, the cultural values associated with the muslim religion were the prevalent values. What then? You want to tell me that this does not alarm you waht so ever?



Do you think that muslims would not try to impose their culture on others? Do you think that a nation dominated by the muslim cultural mindset would allow a group such a Underworld to exist and perform as they do?


I believe that what is happening is Netherlands is just an attempt to get a situation under control. There are millions of people who feel that they are losing their cultural identity, and maybe unlike some of you, they want to keep their cultural identity as it is. I believe that if many of these immigrants were to at least try to adopt some of the culture of their new home then this would not be an issue, but that is not happening. I also believe that for the large majority of the people who support ideas such as wilders, the issue is not about race, its about culture.



I hope I am making sense, I have never been the most eloquent writer...;-)



I hope I am making sense

Deckard 01-17-2011 05:33 AM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by human151
"Mar. 16, 2008 update: John Cornwell, a leading historian and commentator on religion, is generally skeptical of Nazir-Ali's no-go areas but finds that if anyplace fits the profile, it's Bury Park in Luton:
Luton, like other enclaves, has experienced a spate of incidents that look all too like attempts to make Bury Park a no-go area to non-Muslims. Between November of last year and last month there were 18 attacks – all registered by the police – on five non-Muslim homes in the area. One couple, Mr and Mrs Harrop, white residents in their eighties, have had bricks hurled through their windows. The home of Mrs Palmer, a widow of West Indian origin, aged 70, has been attacked four times; on one occasion a metal beer keg crashed through her bay window while she was watching TV."

18 attacks. On 5 non-Muslim homes.

The population of Bury Park is, I believe, approximately 10,000.

This, of course, is assuming that these particular attacks were instances of "You're not a Muslim, you're not welcome here" or part of some joined-up campaign - none of which has been proven.

DCI Ian Middleton of Bedfordshire police believes the attacks on those 5 non-Muslim homes to be the work of small groups of white or Muslim extremists, stirring up racial and inter-religious hatred for its own sake.

And boy can I believe that.

Stirring up racial or religious hatred is such a shockingly easy thing to achieve, especially amongst those with a simplistic "them and us" mindset to begin with, that it's surprising there isn't much more of it.

Trust me, Bury Park is no no-go zone for non-Muslims.

I suppose to some people, the very appearance of a large Muslim Pakistani population will - in itself - make for a "no-go zone for non-Muslims". But in that case this was a deeply misleading and mischievous piece of rhetoric, implying a situation far more grave than is actually the case.

That's why the Bishop of Rochester never bothered to cite it as evidence.

And that's why I called it inflammatory.

Deckard 01-17-2011 05:56 AM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by human151
Does it really matter what people wear? No it doesent, people are free to wear what ever they please. But when the clothing is specific to a culture and or religion there is a problem.

I disagree.

It just so happens I attended a birthday bash last night, organized by my Muslim in-laws. They booked a function room in a restaurant.

There were about 50 of us in total, including the local mayor.
Approx 40 were Muslim or of ethnic Pakistani origin.
Approx 10 were non-Muslim/white.

Many of the Muslims wore traditional Pakistani clothes. Not black gowns or head-to-toe burqas (none of them would wear anything like that) but nonetheless it was what you have called "clothing specific to a culture and/or religion". Bright colourful saris, gold jewellery - stuff like that.

The Muslims who organised this get-together didn't drink alcohol - but they were considerate enough to put on a bar for the alcohol-drinking non-Muslim minority.

We all had a good time.

These are the stories you don't read about in your right wing news sources, because they don't fit the narrative of division, they don't drive a wedge between people.

Yes there are problems with Islamic extremism, yes there are mosques that have disseminated extremist literature, yes there is probably a greater propensity of what I would deem backwards attitudes.

But by listening to groups like the English Defence League, or Stop the Islamification of Europe, or Wilders' Dutch Freedom Party, or the Tea Party extremists, you won't be made aware of the Muslim peace marches and groups, you won't be hearing the imams that speak out against extremism, you won't know about all the Muslims who accept non-Muslims and atheists and homosexuals, you won't hear about ANY of these things.

There does not have to be a problem with integration just because people of Pakistani origin (or the Muslim religion) choose to wear clothes specific to the culture or religion of their birth country or their parents' birth country. Many of us prove it each day.

It only becomes a problem when the mischief-makers from both sides of the debate make it a problem.

Deckard 01-17-2011 06:01 AM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by human151
Its almost as if these people are say "look at me I'm a muslim ... Most other people dont go around advertising and differentiating themselves based on religion.

But so what? People go around advertising and differentiating themselves in all sorts of ways all the time. Why should religion be excluded?

If someone wants to dress in such a way that says 'look at me I'm a muslim' (or 'look at me I'm a Christian'), then they should have the freedom to do that. I've already shown that it doesn't automatically point to a problem of integration.

It's perfectly possible to live happily alongside people very different to yourself without requiring assimilation of clothing. :D

Deckard 01-17-2011 06:10 AM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by human151
The problem is the number of immigrants. if the number is too large then people feel they do not have to assimilate themselves into the established culture. If the number were to continue to grow then what was once an established culture will become the inferior culture. Imagine if in 100 years, at the current immigration level and the immigrant birthrate, the cultural values associated with the muslim religion were the prevalent values. What then? You want to tell me that this does not alarm you waht so ever?

From a cultural point of view, no it doesn't bother me - provided the laws and values remain enlightened and liberal. My opponents are the opponents of liberalism, not Muslims. I think where I'm differing from you is that I don't believe there has to be a single established "culture" that forever belongs to Great Britain. It's dictated by the people. And if the people change, then the culture may quite naturally change. And so it should. Culture belongs to the people who experience it.

Now if people don't like the country becoming "more Muslim" or "more Pakistani" or "less British", then the thing to do is to take a stand against immigration. Don't take a stand against the people who are already perfectly legally here. Those people deserve the exact same freedoms to dress/speak/wear/worship what they like (including "clothing specific to a culture and/or religion") because the rest of us have those freedoms.

If a majority of the people in a country don't like the way immigrants are changing their country, then tackle the government on immigration. Don't judicially (or even just mentally) punish people for wearing certain clothes once they're here, when the rest of us can wear what we like.

Ban the full length burqa in certain situations by all means - but be consistent in other instances too, don't just make it about Muslims. In other words, if security is the issue, then also ban balaclavas and bike helmets. The debate about the burqa should be separate from the debate about immigration.

human151 01-22-2011 12:16 AM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Deckard (Post 148755)
From a cultural point of view, no it doesn't bother me - provided the laws and values remain enlightened and liberal. My opponents are the opponents of liberalism, not Muslims. I think where I'm differing from you is that I don't believe there has to be a single established "culture" that forever belongs to Great Britain. It's dictated by the people. .

The problem, atleast in my view, is that the culture is changing not because of the British people. The government is letting anyone in with a pulse from many differing clutures and that is changing the culture. How would the culture evolve if it were allowed to with just controlled immigration? We will never know that answer because the culture many European countries is being changed by outside forces comming into the country and forcing their new homeland to adapt to their culture. Why do the governments let so many people in? Does Europe, and America for that matter, have a shortage of people?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deckard (Post 148755)
And if the people change, then the culture may quite naturally change. And so it should. Culture belongs to the people who experience it.

Again, the change in culture is being forced upon the natural born citizens of U.K. and other countries. DO the natural born citizens of those countries have any say in how their culture changes?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deckard (Post 148755)
Now if people don't like the country becoming "more Muslim" or "more Pakistani" or "less British", then the thing to do is to take a stand against immigration. Don't take a stand against the people who are already perfectly legally here. Those people deserve the exact same freedoms to dress/speak/wear/worship what they like (including "clothing specific to a culture and/or religion") because the rest of us have those freedoms.

When the people do say that thay do not want their country and culture to change, people call them rascist and xenophobic. There is a stigma associated with speaking out. No one wants to be known as a racist. I am not a racist, but I am not afraid to speak out either, not that what I say really matters. The government will continue to let millions upon millions of people in to our countries, and I really have no idea why. Are western nations obligated to take in people from third world countries? Seems the answer is yes. I know that the majority of these people are great people and just looking for a better life, but our countries are broke and many cities in the United States aren't able to provide the services that they should. Camden, New Jersey is laying off about 50% of its police because they are broke. I dont't know how bad it is in Europe, but here its bad and just this week Los Angeles Country, in California, admitted that illegal immigrants cost the county $600,000,000 a year because of the benefits they receive from the county. Take a look at this story explaining that while 15 million americans are out of work, many immigrants new to the country over the past couple of years are working. I would guess that similar things happen in Europe as well.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70J37P20110120




Quote:

Originally Posted by Deckard (Post 148755)
If a majority of the people in a country don't like the way immigrants are changing their country, then tackle the government on immigration. Don't judicially (or even just mentally) punish people for wearing certain clothes once they're here, when the rest of us can wear what we like.

Ban the full length burqa in certain situations by all means - but be consistent in other instances too, don't just make it about Muslims. In other words, if security is the issue, then also ban balaclavas and bike helmets. The debate about the burqa should be separate from the debate about immigration.

as was already said, most people and politicians for that matter, won't tackle immigration because once they do they are swiftly branded as a racist. Also, here in USA if any politician is against illegal immigration, he will not get the hispanic American vote. Apparently, most americans of Hispanic American origin do not want illegal immigration to end and furthermore, want the 15 million illegal hispanic immigrants here already, to be granted citizenship. Anytime a politician talks about really cracking down on illegal immigrants, the Hispanic organizations go on the tele and talk about how they are going to be boycotted and that they will urge all Hispanic Americans to vote against them. I have to laugh actually when I think if this. The Government has allowed so many illegal immigrants from one region to come here over the past 30 years, while they turn a blind eye, now that illegal immigration is out of control, there is nothing they can really do to stop them because so many of them have had children who are now of voting age and have become legal themselves that the conservative party is unable to stop illegal immigration if they wanted to because if they did then they would be voted out by all the Hispanics. LMAO.

Sorry about jumping to different topics, but they all tie in together. I'll leave you with this link about the muslim actress from the Harry Potter films.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70K3DP20110121

Apparently, the Males of the family want to force her to adhere to her muslim culture, while she wants to be just British. This is a cultural dispute. In their country of origin this act is completely acceptable.

Also, I am pretty sure that you are a liberal person. What about the muslim religion/culture makes you think that the majority of the muslim people would accept your way life and thoughts? In my opinion, the muslim religion is the polar opposite to liberalism.

bryantm3 01-22-2011 01:08 AM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by human151 (Post 148735)
The US is known for racism against hispanics? Are you fucking kidding me?

THe main problem with the muslims in france is that they don't want to be French. If you're going to move to a new country atleast respect the culture of the country your moving to. Immigrants usually immigrate somewhere for a better life, and with hard work they usually get a better life. The least they could do is try to adapt, just a little, to the new coutries' culture. But a very large percentage of muslims choose to live as if they're still in a muslim country. I went to London recently and say many muslim women walking around with the black costume all over their body and face. Even if you disagree with me, you must admit this is disrespectful to the established culture. There are even so called "no go zones".

"Islamic extremists have created "no-go" areas across Britain where it is too dangerous for non-Muslims to enter, one of the Church of England's most senior bishops warns"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...n-Muslims.html

Things like this is very respectful to a country which has allowed people from another culture to immigrate there.


you see, i don't know what the big deal is here. in the united states we have ethnic neighbourhoods all over the place— this is exactly what i'm talking about. you want them to stop being muslim because they've entered your country. i can understand wanting them to learn the french language so they can communicate and to do basic things like that, but to make them disavow their religion and culture is entirely unreasonable.

let's put it this way: i'm jewish and i have to keep kosher to a degree— this isn't forced upon me, it's a choice, but in most places like denny's or whatnot, i can get by by getting food i can be reasonably sure doesn't have non kosher food in it— eggs, bagels, fish, etc. however, in chinese restaurants it is a totally different thing, even here in the US because they use oyster sauce, clam sauce, pork and shrimp in everything. over in china it is even worse for someone trying to keep kosher— they eat rats, snakes, horse, dog, etc.

what if i was to move to an asian country? i would probably want to live in a jewish or american neighbourhood where i could be assured i was getting food that was okay for me to eat. so am i being "rude" to the country i am moving to? no, i am not going to drop my personal beliefs just because i move to a country. in addition, jews more observant than i am keep the sabbath, wherein they can't drive and must walk to the synagogue— making it a necessity to live together in a tight knit area. in the same way, muslims have halal restrictions and probably many other more observances like wearing a burkha. has it ever dawned on you that perhaps the reason they stay close together is because they are afraid of people discriminating against them because they choose to wear a burkha?

it's not just jews— here in the US, we have black neighbourhoods where it's "not safe to go for white people" (i'm not talking about high-crime areas), but you find that if you go to those places, the people aren't rude to you and they won't hurt you— there just happens to be a lot of black people who live in that area because they have a culture they like to celebrate together, rather than segregate from each other and lose their identity. it's just that some white people don't like that, or it bothers them, so they choose not to go there. but not in decades has anyone tried to limit the black people from living in the manner they choose to live in the united states— together, because that would be illegal and violating their rights.

let's turn this around, frenchy. you live in a neighbourhood where a lot of french people live. a ton of muslims move in and establish a mosque in the area, halal food restaurants, etc. to get your snails and whatnot, you decide to congregate together in a small section of town you like to call the "french quarter". the muslims then gang up on you and say things like "French extremists have created "no-go" areas across France where it is too dangerous for Muslims to enter", and "The least they could do is try to adapt, just a little, to our neighborhood's culture, such as eating halal and covering their heads. But a very large percentage of French choose to live as if they're still in a French neighbourhood".

how in the heck is this not racism?

bryantm3 01-22-2011 01:27 AM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by human151 (Post 148819)

Sorry about jumping to different topics, but they all tie in together. I'll leave you with this link about the muslim actress from the Harry Potter films.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70K3DP20110121

Apparently, the Males of the family want to force her to adhere to her muslim culture, while she wants to be just British. This is a cultural dispute. In their country of origin this act is completely acceptable.

Also, I am pretty sure that you are a liberal person. What about the muslim religion/culture makes you think that the majority of the muslim people would accept your way life and thoughts? In my opinion, the muslim religion is the polar opposite to liberalism.

well, have you ever heard of house rules? for example, if you're living at home with your dad and mum still, and you bring playboy magazines and kegs of beer in the basement. your parents lay down the law and say "we aren't going to have that in our house". this is a reasonable responsibility a parent should be able to take. when it becomes different is when the parent or relative steps over the line and begins violating the law. where it becomes different is when the person moves away and the family follows them and refuses to leave them alone. there is a difference between legal acts of the parents and violating the law.

in this situation, the law was clearly violated. but that's not what you were aiming at before— before you were discussing cultural differences that are entirely legal for anyone in france or britain to take part in, and how a certain culture should not be allowed to have those rights. now you're talking about the differences in law between the two countries. so it seems we're just moving the line around— what is the line to cross in your opinion? in my opinion, the immigrants should be allowed to do whatever they wish to do as long as they don't violate standing laws in that country. to me that is the extent that they are required to adapt.

Deckard 01-22-2011 07:10 AM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by human151
I'll leave you with this link about the muslim actress from the Harry Potter films...

Thanks, but ask yourself - why didn't you leave me with the link about the Muslim woman whose brother didn't attack his sister?

Think about it...

Deckard 01-22-2011 07:57 AM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Let me try to establish where I'm coming from with this by using some figures (admittedly pulled out my ass, but the accuracy isn't the point here - the reasoning behind my conclusion is.)

Let's look at the % of different family types who might have a family member that would act like this Harry Potter actress' brother. No offence intended from the order of this list, but for the sake of argument let's say that...

0.02% of non-religious families would have someone who'd act like this.
0.05% of Christian families
0.08% of Jewish families
0.09% of Hindu families
0.19% of Muslim families

Now from this data there would clearly appear to be a bigger problem among Muslim families than families of any other religion (and I readily suspect that would be the case in real life). In this case, they are almost ten times more likely to contain a family member who would physically attack their sister for not marrying in their faith than a similar person from a family at the other end of the scale.

BUT... it would still mean that more than 99% (or a vast majority) of Muslim families are NOT like that.

And that un-newsworthy majority would by definition be invisible to you and to many like you - essentially decent people I think - but who continue to fall for this cognitive error, and latch onto the spate of stories with the kind of confirmation bias that does your decency no favors. You'll tell yourself things like "well these things are constantly in the newspapers and on TV and it's ALWAYS Muslims so it must be true" - but each time you'll be failing to apply a proper level of critical analysis and perspective to what you're hearing or reading.

Now I want to assure you that I have no problem in recognizing the greater problem among Muslim families than families of other religions, and I'm under no illusions about the much greater problem of extremism. I know my experience of Muslims - with my partner's family and friends, and with my own experiences in London - are certainly not going to be universal.

The problem I have is when you and many others come out with pronouncements about "Muslims" (they're illiberal, they're anti-social and isolationist, etc) as if they're all the same. Not "some Muslims". Not "a few Muslims". Not "the less libeal Muslims" No... just "Muslims". Or statements like "The main problem with the muslims in france is that they don't want to be French" (from earlier in the thread).

Surely you can see how wrong, unfair, unkind and potentially counterproductive this kind of talk is?

Deckard 01-22-2011 08:13 AM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Btw, it's not racist to oppose immigration or even to prefer your country's original 'culture'.

The difficulty has always been that a lot of actual racists and xenophobes ARE drawn to anti-immigration pro-indigenous culture positions.

And so guilt-by-association takes root.

As long as you always try to be precise in your language, specific in your outlook (ie. try to be aware of your generalizations), and kind in your heart, then ignore those calling you a racist.

Ultimately though, the fact that some people may wrongly label you racist for speaking out against the current scale or scope of immigration doesn't alter the fact that the debate needs to take place at the level of immigration, not at dictating how those people, once here, should dress/eat/worship.

Once here, we should all have the same freedoms. We may debate those freedoms, we may restrict or expand them, but that should happen irrespective of the religion or cultural origin of individuals.

human151 01-24-2011 03:21 PM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
http://www.aolnews.com/2011/01/24/mu...aleki-accused/

the above link is an "honor killing" this time, in Airizona. Quoting the article "Faleh Almaleki, who had moved the family from Iraq to Arizona, apparently felt his 20-year-old daughter had become too Westernized". WHy would you move the the "west" and not expect your young daughter to adapt. How many instances like this do we not hear about? How many which stop short of killing are never reported? There is a pattern here. Many muslims (not all) do not want to "westernize". Is this what we should expect of our immigrants, both in Europe and the U.S.? Apparently, Deckard et al, you believe they don't need to adapt while many do, probably the majority. THats the heart of the issue here.

saying everyone needs to have freedoms to do what ever they want, within the law. is one thing. Outside cultural forces changing the indigenous culture is another, and there should be a distinction.

I am not saying that all muslim people are bad, but I am going to assume that the majority of Muslims are very religious and their religion dictates their lifestyle. How can a devout muslim still practice their religion, which is their right, and still assimilate to the larger culture? Answer is, that they can't, in many cases. WHich is where extremism come into play, in my opinion. Not all muslims are extremist, but there is enough, even if its only 10%, that is still millions of muslims who have extreme views. Of those millions who do hold these extreme views, not all are violent, but enough are.

http://www.wordsandwar.com/2008/01/2...kill-infidels/

How many muslims feel the same way as the man from the above link? How many muslims in Europe feel this way? I would say that enough do, which is a huge problem.

"Jihad against non-Muslims seemed to me to be a win-win situation. The following verse, commonly cited by Jamaah members, validated my duty to die for Allah: “Allah has purchased the believers, their lives and their goods. For them [in return] is the garden [of paradise]. They fight in Allah’s cause, and they slay and are slain; they kill and are killed… it [paradise] is the promise of Allah to them” (Koran 9:111)."

“O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends: They are but friends to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them [for friendship] is of them [an infidel]. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust” (Koran 5:51)."

WHich other religion actually commands people not to accept certain people as their friends and kill for the cause?

now you may know some muslim people that do not adhere to this, but how many Muslims are devout and do believe in this and most everything else in the Koran? Is it okay to have people who believe in this stuff and acting in the muslim lifestyle, many of whom refuse to try to adapt to thier new country, living in Europe? I would say the European liberal cultures and Islam are incompatible.

Now I dont go to the site quoted above, I just google it. I dont know if thier right wing or anything. I am not right wing (in before accusations ;-)).

bryantm3 01-24-2011 08:02 PM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
there are a lot of verses that are like this that are taken entirely out of context, in the koran, the new testament, and the tanakh. fundamentalists use literal, out of context interpretations to support their own radical claims— this is true across all religions that have a sacred text.

this is the context in which most muslims find this verse:

http://www.omeriqbal.com/a/13

if the person who had decided to be a suicide bomber had actually read the story around the quote, maybe he wouldn't have made the decision he did, but i don't believe he would've changed his mind anyway— that's the way fundamentalists are, they don't look for answers in the bible/koran, they make a decision based on their own prejudices and skewed morality systems, and then they search through the text high and low for some out-of-context quote that supports their ridiculous claim.

Deckard 01-25-2011 03:31 AM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by human151
Apparently, Deckard et al, you believe they don't need to adapt while many do, probably the majority. THats the heart of the issue here.

Once again, you're not being specific enough.

Adapt in what way?

Do I think we should insist that immigrants adapt to the dominant language?
Yes.

Do I think we should insist they adapt to/abide by existing laws?
Yes.

Do I think we should insist that honor killings are unacceptable?
Yes.

Do I think we should insist that they dress like so-called "Westerners"?
No.

Do I think we should insist that they don't be so darned religious?
No.

In other words, you need to be more specific, not only in how you write but - I suspect - in how you think. You will never progress on this or any other issue until you learn to move beyond this low-resolution, broad-tipped brush approach.

Deckard 01-25-2011 03:50 AM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by human151
saying everyone needs to have freedoms to do what ever they want, within the law. is one thing. Outside cultural forces changing the indigenous culture is another, and there should be a distinction.

Well not only would setting a distinction between the two require a list of what constitutes "indigenous culture" in the first place (not laws, but culture), it would also require a blind spot to all the cultural 'outside influences' you've accepted in the past, either knowingly or unknowingly.

My thoughts go something like this:
  • Unlike a country's legal system, its culture is NOT set in stone.
  • At any one time, a country's overall culture is dependent on the people in it and influenced by the sum total of what has gone before.
  • Culture is not and never has been uniform for everyone.
  • Citizens (immigrant or 'indigenous') should have equal rights, responsibilities and freedoms
  • That includes equal freedom to dress, eat, dance, sing, marry whomsoever they wish.
  • It also includes the freedom to oppose or dislike or even abhor alcohol, revealing clothes, consumerism, promiscuity and homosexuality.
  • However the LAW requires a tolerance of others who enjoy those things, and a freedom to challenge and be challenged back.

Find something disagreeable about an attitude or custom? Then oppose the attitude or custom - not people of an entire religion (because that's way too broad).

Also feel free to take your argument up with the government allowing the scope or scale of immigration that's sparking this apparently disagreeable cultural change. Address it at the immigration stage. Not at the "once they've got here" stage. Because once they've got here, they are citizens, and they have the same freedoms including the freedom to be different. That's not some liberal PC nonsense. It's quite simply that if they don't have that latter freedom - to be different - then they have LESS freedoms than indigenous people who also choose to be different or more culturally influenced from other countries.

Deckard 01-25-2011 04:04 AM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by human151
I am not saying that all muslim people are bad, but I am going to assume that the majority of Muslims are very religious and their religion dictates their lifestyle.

Bit of a lopsided statement.
The possibility that 'the majority of Muslims are very religious' doesn't make them bad.
The possibility that 'religion dictates their lifestyle' also doesn't make them bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by human151
How can a devout muslim still practice their religion, which is their right, and still assimilate to the larger culture?
Answer is, that they can't.

1) Yes they can. And plenty do.
2) Why should anyone have to "assimilate to the larger culture"? Integrate with society, yes. Become a law-abiding part of society, yes. Assimilate with a certain culture? No. As long as it's law-abiding. If anyone told me I had to assimilate to the larger culture, I'd tell them where to go!

Quote:

Originally Posted by human151
even if its only 10%, that is still millions of muslims who have extreme views.

...and 90% who don't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by human151
Of those millions who do hold these extreme views, not all are violent, but enough are.

...enough to warrant the kind of generalizations you've been making in this thread? If 90% of Muslims don't have extreme views, is that enough to counter your remarks that Muslims are incompatible with western countries?

Quote:

Originally Posted by human151
WHich other religion actually commands people not to accept certain people as their friends and kill for the cause?

You should take a look at Deuteronomy some time.

The fact that religious texts contain bloodthirsty calls to arms doesn't mean that adherents to that religion can't still identify themselves as belonging to that religion while also ignoring or otherwise interpreting those parts.

The fact that the Qur'an is arguably even more bloodthirsty and violent than the Hebrew Bible or the New Testament doesn't make it a black and white case of "Jews and Christians CAPABLE of selective interpretation, Muslims INCAPABLE". You need to go careful not to sink into that tribal mindset and lose sight of the likelihood that the majority of all three religions are not violent fundamentalists, and while there may currently be more Muslim fundmentalists than Christian/Jewish (for reasons which, I would maintain, go beyond the mere issue of what's in the Qur'an), that doesn't make it right or fair or accurate to start seeing the world through the lens of "Muslim vs non-Muslim".

human151 01-25-2011 09:38 AM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
So it seems we are at an impasse.

You would be perfectly fine with the U.K., and Europe as a whole, one day emulating a middle eastern country. THis will happen, whether it takes 100 years or 300 is irrelevant.

I believe the people of Europe want to keep their cultural identity. Unfortunately, the people really have no say in the matter. The governments will do whatever they want.

Do you really think that most pakistani immigrants to England, for example, consider themselves British? Or, do they still consider themselves Pakistani?

If I were to move to Japan, and thought it would be for the rest of my life, I would consider myself Japanese because it was my new country. I would then begin to adapt to their culture. I would NEVER expect the culture to adapt to me.

I'll end my participation in this thread with this quote from a Spanish Language newspaper in Geargia, USA. Apparently, most hispanic immigrants do not consider themselves to be "Americans". This can probably be applied to most classes of immigrants.

"Americans don't read our paper because they can't read Spanish. They don't read our news, our editorials and the opinion of the community. But if they see a picture, they'll get it,"

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/01/...ex.html?hpt=T2

ha, another one of my right wing news sources, eh?

Deckard 01-25-2011 10:39 AM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by human151
So it seems we are at an impasse.

It would seem so, given statements like this...
Quote:

Originally Posted by human151
You would be perfectly fine with the U.K., and Europe as a whole, one day emulating a middle eastern country.

Are you actually reading what I'm writing?
Emulating in what way?
Which middle eastern country?

Quote:

Originally Posted by human151
Do you really think that most pakistani immigrants to England, for example, consider themselves British? Or, do they still consider themselves Pakistani?

Both, depending on what you ask.

Nationally, British.
Ethnically, Pakistani, unless they're mixed race.
Culturally... a bit of both.

I'm guessing you'll be uncomfortable with that response, that it won't satisfy your craving for a straightforward, unambiguous, "with-us-or-against-us" single word answer. You may even think I'm wriggling out of the question. I'm not; it's what I genuinely observe to be the case. Not everyone feels a need to structure their identity according to one side or the other.

I'm an Englishman living in Wales / a Welshman born in England. If anyone asks me a stupid question like "what do you consider yourself" (it's stupid because what does it actually mean?) then I'll answer that I consider myself both English and Welsh. If that complexity makes their brain shortcircuit, then that's just too bad. They can always go recover by watching John Wayne shoot some Indians and Arnie punch some Middle Eastern terrorists. :D

Deckard 01-25-2011 10:43 AM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by human151
ha, another one of my right wing news sources, eh?

There's no such thing as a centerist news source in the US. It's ALL right wing to some of us! ;)

human151 01-25-2011 11:13 AM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Deckard (Post 148877)
It would seem so, given statements like this...

Are you actually reading what I'm writing?
Emulating in what way?
Which middle eastern country?

Its a pretty straightforward statement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deckard (Post 148877)


Both, depending on what you ask.

Nationally, British.
Ethnically, Pakistani, unless they're mixed race.
Culturally... a bit of both.

Its a pretty straightforward question. If people choose to immigrate to a new country and become part of that society then they should consider themselves a national of that country. Think about the civil war in Yogoslavia. The Serbs considered themselves SERB and Christian. The Bosnians Identified themselves as Bosnian and Muslim. They were all Yugoslavian. Can I make it any more clearer for you.

Do you consider yourself to be "British"? if so, why? Could it be because you live in Britain?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deckard (Post 148877)
I'm guessing you'll be uncomfortable with that response, that it won't satisfy your craving for a straightforward, unambiguous, "with-us-or-against-us" single word answer. You may even think I'm wriggling out of the question. I'm not; it's what I genuinely observe to be the case. Not everyone feels a need to structure their identity according to one side or the other.


Im not asking you to be with or against anyone. I am merely asking for a strightforward response to straightforward questions. You have a sneaky way about you in regards to actually answering questions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deckard (Post 148877)

I'm an Englishman living in Wales. If anyone asks me a stupid question like "what do you consider yourself" (it's stupid because what does it actually mean?) then I'll answer that I consider myself both English and Welsh. If that complexity makes their brain shortcircuit, then that's just too bad. They can always go recover by watching John Wayne shoot some Indians and Arnie punch some Middle Eastern terrorists. :D


What does it actually mean? It means exactly how it sounds. Are you British or not? wales is a state of Great Britain. You may be Welsh, but you are still British, unless of course you do not consider yourself British.

Deckard 01-25-2011 03:16 PM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by human151
You would be perfectly fine with the U.K., and Europe as a whole, one day emulating a middle eastern country.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deckard
Emulating in what way?
Which middle eastern country?

Quote:

Originally Posted by human151
Its a pretty straightforward statement.

...as were were my questions requesting elaboration.

After all, my answer will be different depending on what precisely you mean.

Which Middle Eastern country are you talking about? And emulating in what respect? Do you mean Iran's attitude to homosexuality? Or Jordan's? I'll take the one where it's not criminalized thanks. Wearing saris? Decorating with henna? Wouldn't bother me in the slightest if that took off in Britain. Wearing burqas and niqabs? No I don't want that - I prefer seeing someone's face, though I wouldn't necessarily ban it. Saudi Arabia style gender parity? Absolutely not. Politeness and respect? Yep, we'll take some of that. Theocratic rule? No, I absolutely would not be fine about that. Eating spicy food? Whatever...

See what I'm doing here? I'm applying judgments on a case-by-case basis. And if it looks like a certain practise or custom that I really don't like is taking hold in Britain, then I'll vigorously oppose it. However, what I refuse to do is bracket something off and call it 'indigenous culture' and expect everyone to adhere to it. What I also refuse to do is expect only immigrants to adhere to it, thus setting up a two-tier society where they have fewer rights than the rest in society.

When I make a judgment call about certain cultural practices, I'll make it based on the practice itself, not on the immigration status of the individual (and certainly not on their ethnicity, religion or country of birth).

Deckard 01-25-2011 03:19 PM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by human151
Do you really think that most pakistani immigrants to England, for example, consider themselves British? Or, do they still consider themselves Pakistani?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deckard
Both, depending on what you ask. Nationally, British. Ethnically, Pakistani, unless they're mixed race. Culturally... a bit of both.

Quote:

Originally Posted by human151
Its a pretty straightforward question.

And I responded with a straightforward answer. But here it is again, broken down into more detail. Nationally, it's a technical question - whatever is on their passport. Culturally, some Pakistani immigrants to Britain will consider themselves British. Some will consider themselves Pakistani. If you're asking me to speculate about how most would define themselves, I'd say a majority would consider themselves both British AND Pakistani. (If this answer annoys you and you demand one identity or the other and you think I'm wriggling out of the question, then you need to rein in that tribal mind of yours and try to think in a less binary way! Because clearly not everyone feels the need to pick a single cultural identity.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by human151
I am merely asking for a strightforward response to straightforward questions. You have a sneaky way about you in regards to actually answering questions.

Ask a question that's less vague or less loaded with unnecessarily broad assumptions, and you'll get a better answer. If I don't share the premise of your question, then I'm unlikely to be able to provide you with one of the answers you were expecting. Where that happens, I'm trying to explain. That's not being sneaky, it's being honest.

Deckard 01-25-2011 03:28 PM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by human151
Do you consider yourself to be "British"?
if so, why? Could it be because you live in Britain?

Yes and yes. But then it's not just because I live in Britain. It's also likely because I've always lived in Britain, so there are no other countries for me to consider. Had I been born in Australia or Pakistan and subsequently moved here, then who knows. And by the way this was the very reason for me bringing up the point about being English/Welsh, because it raises a similar question...

Quote:

Originally Posted by human151
Are you British or not? wales is a state of Great Britain. You may be Welsh, but you are still British, unless of course you do not consider yourself British.

I haven't denied my Britishness (and thanks for reminding me where Wales is, I'd almost forgotten. ;) ) The reason I brought up the example of England and Wales is because, besides being in Britain, these are also two individual nations with their own sense of identity, their own sense of nationalism and loyalty, and it's a question that is raised surprisingly often. And when people ask it, I usually answer: I'm both. Probably I feel slightly more English if I'm being honest (country of my birth) which may explain why I initially described myself as an Englishman living in Wales rather than a Welshman born in England. But that may also have something to do with the strong sense of nationalism felt and expressed by many in Wales - overt expressions of nationalism are something I have never particularly cared for.

But the short answer is 'both' and 'who really cares' (besides those with a fixation on which tribe people belong to.)

human151 02-13-2011 01:29 PM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
So what do you think about what your Prime Minister said?

part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiIk14m1EgE

part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xrvH..._order&list=UL

Im very interested on British peoples' opinion on this.

Deckard 02-13-2011 04:00 PM

Re: Dutch on verge of getting most right wing government in the EU, in dutch history
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by human151
So what do you think about what your Prime Minister said?

What do I think about what the conservative party leader said?

I think it was mostly a headline grabbing exercise even though I agree with some of it.

On his desire for the boundaries of acceptable behaviour to be based around modern liberal notions of equal rights and then applied to every section of society - well yes of course, though it's hard to disagree with a nice cosy generality like that.

On his insistence that the state should never turn a blind eye to cruelty and crime out of some misguided sense of cultural sensitivity - yes I agree with him, and yes it's happened too often.

However it's quite an extrapolation to conclude that these mistakes mean that the entire concept of multiculturalism has failed - even moreso that this failure is somehow the fault of big government.

If Cameron really believed so strongly in what he said, why, for instance, is he pushing so hard for faith schools and the segregation of children from age 5 and up?

His decision to make this speech on the same day that 3000 EDL supporters held their scheduled march through Luton chanting such delightful slogans as "Allah, Allah who the fuck is Allah" only heightened that suspicion.

And let me make the now-standard point... had a fraction of the number of Muslims held a similar march with just one chanting a similar sentiment about, say, Christians, it would have been all over the front pages. That's the reality about the kind of climate we're living in - and he said nothing to acknowledge that.


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