The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

Danish ISP blocks The Pirate Bay

Not sure how well this will work as if the internet has taught us anything it's that when one site is taken down another one (or two or three) will spring up somewhere else

Thoughts?

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

If you ask me the shutting down of OINK was like 100 times more significant than this, and all it did was push filesharing more underground. Perhaps bittorrent will go someday but P2P will not go away without some seriously invasive mesaures.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

yay for opening up the market to smaller ISPs that can use this to market themselves...

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

I know that France have banned certain sites too, although I am not sure which ones. As you say, all this will do is to push it more and more underground, but it won't stop people doing it.

On a side note, it never ceases to amaze me how much of my tax goes to pay the policing of these things uniquely to protect the fiscal interests of big business. What about all the unsolved murders, robberies, burglaries? Oh wait. They only happen to "little" people who don't fund political parties...:mad:

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

I have mixed feelings about this stuff. While being able to easily share files is incredibly convenient and fun when used responsibly, it's also being abused to a level that really hurts some people. The singer who gave me my first opportunity to have a couple remixes released did so through her own start-up label. She's an established vocalist who's been featured on tracks by people like A Guy Called Gerald and Dyad10 along with others, with relative hits like last 2001's "Sugar (Sweet Thing)". But when she released her own album and singles last year, which required personal investment and sacrifice, she made no money at all because the releases were immediately made available for free on P2Ps and torrent sites by some jerk-offs. In fact, she lost money and is now probably shutting down the label as a result. On a personal level, the last time I spoke to her, she sounded pretty crushed about it, and is struggling just to make ends meet.

So it's tempting to think that shutting down these file sharing sites is just because big businesses are protecting their fiscal interests, but it's far harder on the little guy based on what I've seen - thanks to the assholes of the world who don't have the common sense or decency to realize how their illegal actions hurt the lives of others.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

But without technology, your friend would never be able to record/release music anyway. Public performance and merchandise will be the only real way to make money in the future or we can go back to the time before recorded music where comissions were the way to make money.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

I haven't got an issue with technology - I have an issue with selfish and thoughtless behaviour, which is exactly what stealing someone's music and making it available for free is. Not to mention the fact that theft is illegal whether you're stealing physical items from a store, or virtual items from the comfort of your own home.

And I completely disagree with your assertion that "public performance and merchandise will be the only real way to make money in the future". In fact, it's less that I disagree, and more that I believe it's literally impossible. How can you afford to tour in support of an album you can't afford to make in the first place? And how do you merchandise it if you've actually lost money just trying to get the music out there? No one's going to buy merchandise for a non-existant album. And why bother trying to make music when it's even harder now to make any kind of living at it than it was before thanks to the assholes of the world who feel it's their right to take your work and distribute it for free? As long as this mindset that "art is free, man" persists, art and artists will suffer.

I can only pursue music because I have a day job. Because despite having a few remixes officially released at this point, I haven't made a single penny off of them. Why? On one of them, I had a contract for a flat fee payment, but the label is going under thanks to people stealing the tracks, and has no money to pay as a direct result. On another, because I had a contract for a portion of profits from sales, but clearly sales don't happen when it's being passed around for free. And on the last, we'll see what happens since it's only just about to be released. But I have had to join the local musician's union, which over the past couple years has cost me a few hundred dollars. So basically, ever since I started getting professional work in the music industry, it's actually cost me money.

So how eager do you think I am to continue pursuing a career in music? And how many other amateur musicians do you think have been forced to abandon an attempt at having a career in music thanks to assholes who steal their work? People need to wake the hell up to the consequences of their actions. Sorry, but I feel very strongly about this after having seen exactly how file sharing has negatively affected truly talented and inspired artists. It stifles their talent and kills their inspiration. Well done, music fans!

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

Oh boy. This debate. It's like abortion and Israel - no-one ever wins.

Currently in NZ there is a bill - that will become law on Feb 27th - Section 92a - which makes ISP's liable for all copyright infringement. And ISP's must terminate internet connections of those suspected of said copyright infringement. No proof is required. No court action is required. Merely allegation.

It's being pushed by APRA, and the record labels - and it's being opposed by many - including artists.

The law is poorly written - on so many levels and ignores a new reality of digital work. One example of how it's badly written is in its very definition of an ISP - it includes any person or organisation that has a website. WTF?

Naturally it opens up a whole can of worms - and of course much controversy. Apart from the sheer insanity of the technology and man hours required to prove an allegation - why would ISP's want to disconnect their clients? It's like holding the government liable for deaths of people on state owned roads.

In NZ it's illegal, under the current law for me to buy a CD - then rip the contents of that CD onto my computer and then load it onto my iPod. The big business side of the recording industry has seen fit to make me purchase a VHS, a DVD, and now a Blu-ray of the same content. Not to mention the number of times Lucas has foisted re-interpratations of the Star Wars trilogies on us.

I love movies, I've bought plenty on VHS and now on DVD, but if I want to watch one of the movies I already own on MY portable player - I have to go out and buy (PSP) or pay to download another copy (via iTunes)- of the same thing? That's a bit shit when I'll even do the re-encoding myself to save you the work.

I have to disagree on one of your points Sean - imo - this is not an issue of theft. Theft is if I take something that belongs to you - and you no longer have it. If I torrent a copy of your remix - you still have the remix. This is an issue of fair use and who is compensated for created content. I'm all for fair use and fair compensation - but this issue of piracy isn't exactly Johnny Depp and the pirates of Barbary.

I mean - here in NZ - not only is the definition flawed - but the language is inflammatory and ridiculous. This is the pdf - that got sent out to schools by NZFACT. Can you actually read that and not chuckle at the OTT-ness of it all?

Yes - if you use P2P technology you could be exposed to pornographic material!!!! aaarrghh.... as opposed to, you know, turning on the news.

If I go to a library and borrow an author's book - read it, then put it back, am I in breach of copyright? Is the next person who borrows that book? Is the rate-payer funded library liable?

If I go and look at a painting hanging in a public gallery, decide I like it - then buy a copy of that painting as a postcard, then download a copy of that painting to use as my desktop - at which point do I break copyright? Is it when I downloaded the image using bittorrent? Or was it when I scanned the postcard into my computer? Or was it if I took out my cellphone and took a picture of the painting?

As a teacher, I will be in breach of the law in NZ when I show a youtube video, such as this. That is the BBC's content - not mine.

I have friends who've been screwed over by record labels, and have then gone on to do done damn well licensing their music - and selling it online. There's Radiohead, there's NIN, there's the Python's cleaning up - after they setup their own youtube channel.

And has been said - all it does is push filesharing further underground - another protocol or co-located host will be setup. I mean - wasn't the victory over Napster meant to save the music industry? They poured millions of dollars into that fight - and then expect us to go out and pay for Girls Aloud and yet another Hannah Montana compilation?:rolleyes:

Lawrence Lessig, the people over at Creative Commons, the EFF - there are sane people discussing this issue. IMHO - they need to be listened too.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

There's no debate as far as I'm concerned. Enforce reasonable laws against the people who illegally share music files. But to pretend that stealing music from an artist hurts no one is ignorance at best, maliciousness at worst.

Chuck - what if suddenly your students stole their lessons from you for free, so there was no way for you to be paid for teaching? Would it be cool with you to hear people say "hey - the future of teaching is writing and selling books, not teaching in a classroom".

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

but that's traditionally how most artists have made their money. most record contracts with large labels are structured so that the artists make zilch off of record sales and unless their album goes friggin' platinum they'll never make enough off of simple record sales to recoup the cost of production. on the other hand, touring is where they make bank. performance and merchandise is where artists become financially successful. not record sales.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

Unfortunately - the debate has to be had here in NZ - it's been shaped/forced through by the record labels/big business. They blatantly attack the technology as the reason for piracy - read the quote I reference above - IF you use p2p - YOU WILL get infected with viruses etc, etc. The wording of the new law is insanity - and leaves the door wide open for businesses, libraries, schools all to be cut off the Net - under the accusation of guilt.

How do they prove who's downloaded what? Under the NZ law - they don't have to prove it, the ISP must terminate the connection, if they receive notice that a user has been downloading illegal content. No proof, no court case, and the user has no way to defend themselves against the charge - because you don't have to provide evidence.

Under this legislation wireless hotspots - like in Starbucks or the airport will have to be shut down, regardless of the fact that you can't prove who's downloaded what. I have a wireless point at home - how can I prove it's not been hacked by the neighbour, who's then downloaded the latest episode of Heroes.

What if an artist wants to download their own music - from a torrent site - how do they prove their the author/creator of that content. They can be cut off.

If you taped a copy of Heroes or BSG for me in the US - then mailed me the cd or the vhs tape - because it won't screen in NZ for another month - who's broken copyright?

Some good discussion here and here.

The debate is being led by certain interests here in NZ (and possibly around the globe) - and the majority of our parlimentarians are ignorant of the implications - or the consequences of a simple black and white solution.

Besides, all it's going to take is several letters of complaint to the ISP's that supply Parliament for them to realise how insane this legislation is.

Um - well, I give away my lessons for free, as I work in a public school. The government pays me - it's a social good/social contract kind of thing. Taxes pay my wages - just like they pay the wages of the police, the nurses, doctors, garbage collectors. I assume that my students are going to take my ideas, add them to their own experiences, combine them with the teachers, coaches and family that they have around them as they grow up and then create, design, build, write their own ideas.

NO teacher works in a vacuum - all teachers will use, reuse, reshape ideas.

I use the internet and content on the net to inform and put together the majority of my lessons. I expect my students to do the same - there's a case that could be made for leaving them all at home and telling them to use google to learn. There are dozens of websites where you can download worksheets, pdfs, lesson plans - many set up by teachers. Most homeschooling parents will do the same.

Most teachers don't expect to make money off their lesson plans, but they are their intellectual property - and so if I started putting my materials up online, I'd slap a Creative Commons notice on them - just as I do on my flickr page.

If you're talking about making knowledge propietary and enforcing copyright of ideas - that's another topic. There is grounds for it I guess - but if you look up iTunes U - or MIT's Open courseware or even TED - knowledge is getting more open, more available and oddly enough, the majority of it is FREE.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

I'm not talking about financially successful. I'm just talking about financially viable. Like me - I'm not looking to make bank - besides being unrealistic, I just don't want to have to dig into my mortgage money to continue being able to have some songs released.

And for the record, I don't agree with the extreme measures big record companies are taking, either. All I'm saying is that the habit that's developed in our society of stealing music with zero remorse is hurting independent artists. No ifs ands or buts. That's what's happening, and it needs to be considered as the decisions that will shape the music industry's future happen.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

i'm not disagreeing with you in general, just on the point that performance and merchandising isn't where artists get their income. i think the argument that it's not theft because the original owner retains the original copy is just a way to split hairs and absolve yourself of guilt. intellectual property theft is different from physical property theft. it's apples and oranges.

the problem is, the availability of free pirated creative works has turned us all into gollum: "we wants it, so we takes it." wanting a piece of music isn't justification for just outright taking it.

we can quibble about where to split the hair, is it when you look at the pretty painting, or when you take a pretty pictue of the pretty painting, or when you scan the pretty picture of the pretty painting.... it's all a bunch of self-soothing faux-intellectual crap. you know when you launch bittorrent whether you're planning on getting your grubby mitts on a piece of music that is commercially available for pay. period. if the intention of the artist was to make their artistic expression available in exchange for money, then you're stealing when you choose not to exchange money for it. end of story, it's no more complicated than that.

does that mean i'm squeaky clean? nope. i'm part of the problem, too. by and large i pay. i pay for 99.9% of what i have. but every now and then there's that single that was released as a b-side in 1992 and isn't available anywhere online or in stores or on ebay.... and what do you know, i have a copy of bittorrent installed right here on this machine.

but i'm not going to write oodles and oodles of paragraphs debating whether or not it's stealing. it's friggin' stealing. i don't care how hard it is to find or how badly you wanted it, it's still stealing.

call it what it is.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

OK - let's call it what it is.

Let's call the speed limit what it is as well.

Because that's a 'law' - as I understand it - and of course, we're all law abiding citizens - and no-one breaks the law.

I understand your definition of stealing - but as I see it - there is a difference. And you might all insist that it's splitting hairs, but if we can't even agree on the language, then it's a pointless argument. Again - the OTT language that is used by NZFACT and the industry here in NZ basically says, if you use p2p technology - YOU WILL DIE FROM A HORRIBLE DISEASE AND YOUR CHILDREN'S CHILDREN WILL BE CURSED.

It's bullshit, and excessive, and ignores the reality.

You might say it's all faux-intellectual claptrap, but it strikes me that many of us break the law constantly, and we don't all get locked up or penalised for it. How many have been to Asia and bought a pair of cheap Diesel jeans? Or cheap Adidas? Or made a copy of the CD that you've bought and paid for - for the iPod? What's the difference between the copy of Lost on your Tivo - or the copy of Lost that you recorded to VHS? Sung Happy Birthday? Yes - Warner Music own the rights to that one too.

These cases are being argued on the basis of intellectual and copyright law - and the RIAA/MPAA is rampantly screwing people, without any regard for fair use, or any grasp of reality. The new Section 92A of NZ law will be impossible to police or credibly maintain - ISP's are in a lose-lose situation. They can be sued by big business who say they are allowing copyright infringement, and they can be sued by terminated clients, for not having the proof of said infringement. Because the NZ law is based on "accusation of guilt".

This case is indicative. And the fact that the RIAA opposed the case being streamed on the net - seems to me like a case of "cake" and "choking on it". But they might win - some of the people trying to argue the case - are just getting out. For reasons like this:

I'm all for artists being compensated fairly - but the film industry pisses me off for treating me like a criminal and insulting my intelligence by showing their shit "You wouldn't steal a purse. DON'T DOWNLOAD" - at the start of a movie, I've paid for, and a DVD I've paid for. We are getting to the point where the anti-piracy ads will be just like this.

Anyone else see the irony in an industry that attacks the technology for destroying their livelihoods - then uses that technology to show us this.

The Warner Music Group and Youtube split has caused some interesting reactions and responses and rants. It really is a bit shit when you can't even sing covers anymore. Yes, yes, I understand it's been published in an online environment... but good god, talk about how to alienate and piss off the very people you want to purchase your product.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

Just imagine if usage of the Amen break would be illegal (technically it is, but the Winstons don't/didn't care)... an entire genre of music gone. If you think about it, culture is just taking something old and rearraging it slightly. Too restrictive copyright will lead to less cultural diversity.

I know 90% of the music I listen to from the Internet... what would happen if copyright law actually was enforced! I guess we would return to sharing cassettes and CDs like 'in the old days', but that was very limited.
As a music lover I feel criminalized... I spend a lot of money for CDs and try to buy everything I like. How is that different from going into a record store and listening to CDs there before you bought them (I wish there was a good record store here, I love good record stores).

Right now, I think there are two possibilities:

1) There will be a 1984 scenario. The Internet is shut down, and we will listen to generated music coming from the telescreens.

2) Copyright changes from the arbitrarily prolongable (we'll be at 95(!) years soon) tool of the music industry back to its original intent, which was that people gave a little of their freedom away in exchange for more content, nothing more nothing less. Just because you had a hit single or invented Mickey Mouse doesn't mean that your grandchildren are set for life.

There will always be idiots like those, but this is a general problem of society and not limited to this one aspect.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

I'm fully in agreement with you that this is too extreme.

I wasn't actually presenting that as a literal and 100% accurate hypothetical. My point is simply that very few people could afford to do a job that didn't give them the necessary capital to simply get the job off the ground, or even costs them money in the process. Musicians need some measure of return on a release in order to get a tour and merchandising off the ground. If all they get is financial losses with each release, and no way to measure the release's success, then the tour and merchandising simply cannot follow. If you had to pay to be a teacher, you probably couldn't afford to be one.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

It needs to be restrictive enough that it stops people from stealing the work of musicians.

Listening to a preview is one thing. But if you then walked out of the CD store with CDs you didn't pay for, then that's stealing. And that's exactly the same as downloading a free digital copy of an album or single that's commercially available.

Agreed. And these idiots are why we have laws - to hold them accountable for the actions they take that hurt others.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

I do absolutely acknowledge that performance and merchandising are huge aspects of an artist's income. I never meant to imply any different. But if you're an independent artist, or just trying to get started and your album is stolen, it can sink your career - or at least deal it a serious set-back. It kind of kills your chance to maybe organize a tour, or to design and market your merchandise.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

It comes back to what I always say: only ever steal from the big guys. ;)

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

so, what, the argument is, "the law only exists where punishment exists?"

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

Actually I am feeling bad. Not about breaking this particular law but about breaking a law in general.
Still, copyright needs to be changed. Some intelligent people think that 14 years are enough. This month Born Slippy has fallen into Public Domain.
14 years may seem a little short, but it will result in more diverse content, not less.
Unfortunately, copyright in its current form is not compatible with the Internet... maybe someday someone will find a solution that doesn't compromise user privacy.

btw, how do you justify to yourself being a member of RTSR and illegally sharing copyrighted Underworld material, therefore breaking a law?

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

RTSR only shares non-commercially available material, so it doesn't take a single penny out of the pockets of the artist. I don't know if it's technically legal or not, but the RTSR is run openly so that Underworld presumably knows about it and has no problem with it, and it's run responsibly and respectfully. Frankly, I'm less concerned with laws - laws are often flawed - than I am with personal responsibility. Chuck gave a perfect example of what I would consider wrong-headed laws in New Zealand, but the flawed laws don't justify stealing someone's work that they're depending on for income.

Don't get me wrong, I love the ability to easily share files when used responsibly. I don't want to see p2p websites shut down. I just want to see people held reasonably accountable for stealing music/movies and such (along the lines of having to pay the 99 cents they should have been paying for every commercially available track they've stolen) so that smaller artists aren't put out of business. I think this is a perfectly reasonable stance to take.

I'm not quite following. Who's argument is that a summary of?

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

just playing devil's advocate here, but how do you know that filesharing was at the root of all these problems? Surely some records and labels failed just as hard before filesharing even existed. Could be any number of reasons for it.
How do you explain the incredible success of the iTunes store or Beatport? Obviously there are loads of people more than willing to shell out cash for their mp3's, even when the prices aren't exactly all that attractive in all cases compared to physical media.

You have to have a certain degree of luck and be doing just the right thing (or sell your soul and start making Euro Trance) to be able to have a career in music (or any other kind of creative endeavour). It seems to me it's always been like that, filesharing or not.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

I don't know guys.

Sean gave a perfectly concrete example of what has been happening all over the music industry this decade. And responses, while interesting reads, does nothing to overturn the point. File sharing has crippled creativity, clearly seen in his example, to a level where I'm sure this chick can actually see disparity between her revenue and the mass copies of her music out on market, extrapolated out to affect the entire industry.

Thank god for youtube and myspace because they have offset the otherwise consolidation of music output towards modonna and britany spears. But just because intarnets offer exposure isn't an excuse to use the same media to rob the industry. It just means that more cash in hand consumers are able to be reached to compensate.

I can't wait for all file sharing, bit torrent sites and p2p to just go away and everything water down to people just making love letter mixes on blank cd's. Simply out of my love for music do I say this.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

as a counter point i found this masters thesis on the impact of file sharing on indie record labels.




But I still think the issue is cloudy to see what is really going on even for the management of these labels.

1. Most of the qualitative support towards file sharing is actually negative support for the actions of the RIAA and the corporate record labels.
2. They don't distinguish the difference between file sharing and exposure. Whereas I see a huge difference on a simple fiscal level. Exposure is radio, streaming audio like rhapsody, youtube, or myspace embedded files. File sharing is simply owning the damn music.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

I agree, there is a huge difference - it's not like you see the RIAA sueing punters for recording music off the radio. I spent a good portion of my teen years hunched over the radio waiting to hit the pause button and avoid getting Casey Kasem on my mixtape. Broke the law every weekend! And I understand that in a digital world, the scale of copying has naturally changed - to the point that there is a financial impact.

But then again - it's not like the movie industry is running out of cash. And yes - just because they make money, is not a reason to allow rampant file copying and dvd pirating to continue. Not at all - but one of the MPAA/RIAA's major arguments is that online piracy is affecting the bottom line. That's a hell of a bottom line - and having a wife who works in the industry, I'm aware of the implications.

And it'd be nice if the MPAA would get the research that they base their accusations on - you know, within the realm of a reasonable margin of error.

The law here in NZ will not distinguish between 'exposure' - as in a youtube video, a streamed file from an artists website - and "stolen property" - as in an ftp'd/torrented file from a server. It relies on ISP's taking down users connections based on official letters from complainants. Without the user being aware of charges. It's just really shit law - before we even get to the technical differences! Or the implications in an online environment.

I should repeat myself - I'm all for fair use, and fair recompense for people who make stuff. Copyright is designed to do that - it's meant to protect those people for a reasonable time.

As currently enforced though - copyright is so prohibitive it's insane (the rights issues around Watchmen being made into a movie and Alan Moore's refusal to be connected with his own work is one example) - and it's an endgame that the big corporates are going to be unable to win. Not without serious losses on all sides. IMO.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

I find myself agreeing with everything you said, not surprisingly. I think we all have the same ideal world in mind, maybe just coming at it from different angles. I think the only difference is I don't just blame the RIAA and government copyright laws, but also the consumers. Neither have been very legitimate at bringing about what I think everyone knows is the foregone conclusion of the music industry. That it will be largely data file based, purchased over the internet, with the artists wresting increasing amount of compensation and control over their work away from the material world publishers. File sharing networks have been just as much of an obstacle to this dream as major labels refusing to release their work in mp3 format, readily available for purchase. That's my only counter point.

Also, I don't think its that cut and dry to argue that artists have traditionally made their money only on shows and the merchandise they sell at them, so its moot to argue for the artists' benefit when it comes to piracy. For one, that's only been the case because industry has argued they needed to pay for those uber expensive plastic media devices, (which is pennies to the dollar), and then all their awesome work at product placement (yeah right, like mtv is anything like youtube). Or recoup the cost of having to take on other unsuccessful acts. (if someone's shit is unsuccessful, its the studio time at risk, that's it) I mean that's all going away. More than ever its word of mouth and the quality of the work. period. Second, Say you're in a band called Citizen Dick, which is huge in Belgium. How do you know if you're huge in Belgium if the belgians have just downloaded your shit, and not bothered to buy it? To wit, where is your fan base? where do you tour?

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

i dunno. i got tired of reading so i just threw that out there. :D

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

Could be - I'm just telling you what her label claims to have discovered with their first single release. They have also been hurt by some other factors beyond their control, but the illegal file sharing appears to have definitely cut into any return on their investment in the recordings.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

Awesome. :)

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

No, that is not exactly the same. This is the RIAA's way of thinking and it's ridiculous. One downloaded copy != one lost sale. In some cases, yes. In many others, no. If the single sold 1000 copies and was downloaded 9000 times, do you think that in a world without filesharing it would sell 10000? There is really not a good way to tell - it could sell 1000, 2000, 10000, 500...who knows. Albums/singles have failed before the internet as there was no real exposure. The RIAA and MPAA want to treat files as though they were physical objects when they are not. A man who downloads four million albums for himself is not affecting the industry. However a man who obtains four million cases of beer without paying for them is depriving many stores and the beer industry out of lots money because they can actually sell those objects.

I don't think it's as cut and dry as you're making it out to be. Nearly 95% of the CDs I own are a result of filesharing. So has practically every show I've been to. If it were not for filesharing the music industry would have lost thousands of dollars from me personally.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

ok but then there's this.

http://www.heritage.org/research/int...ogy/bg1790.cfm


anyway you're arguing that file sharing serves as art exposure which it just isn't. its art ownership. everything in the world is on youtube these days. hard to believe not a lot of what you've purchased from file sharing couldn't also have been purchased from hearing it on rhapsody, lastfm, or youtube.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

I guess another aspect to throw into the mix is that most people today - don't buy albums. They don't even buy singles really - they just buy/download songs.

You could argue that iTunes put paid to that - but then again, when was the last decent "album" of musical work that was a coherent whole, released?

The 1980s? Def Leppard's Hysteria ? ;) :D

So in a way - the delivery mechanism, ie. albums as in a CD or an LP is, to some extent in a digital environment, flawed.

Disregarding the amount of innocuous pap that's being presented as musical talent these days.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

I don't really find what is quoted a problem. Isn't buying an album and not liking it the reason why so many people complain in the first place? It seems to suggest that sampling is going to move people away from bad albums and on to good ones. That is a good thing.

As for the lastfm/youtube thing...certainly this is what I'd be doing if not for filesharing, I guess the reason why I download stuff instead is because it's higher quality and allows me to listen at work.

To be honest I would just really like some kind of actual user-friendly solution. When Napster and OINK were in their heydays a lot of people commented on how they would gladly pay for the service. I mean seriously there are so many albums...out of print stuff, imports, whatever, that just can't be bought unless you're going to pay $50-60 off eBay for it. Furthermore I think a lot of people hate the way the industry is run and will not support it. Since the ridiculous lawsuits started I have not bought any RIAA CDs and will continue to not do so - plus, it is disheartening to know that artists only recieve a few cents from each song download. Furthermore few sites really even have a sensible pricing model - I do love eMusic, but I don't like that I can download three hour-long five-track albums for the same 'price' as a short fifteen-track one.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

Ah - but what you fail to acknowledge is that the rampant free downloading is a direct result of the ease of stealing the files. No, it may not directly reflect the specific number of lost sales, but if it was equally easy to steal a CD from a music store, than that would probably happen almost as frequently as digital theft happens. So I agree that the number of copies stolen doesn't directly reflect the number of lost sales, but a portion of them certainly does. So say we go with your numbers, and the 9000 stolen copies translates into even 1000 lost sales. That's a lot of lost sales - possibly enough to recoup the costs of a mastering session. See what I'm saying?
People like you probably aren't the problem though. I'm talking about the people who see something available illegally for free, take it, and never pay for a permanent copy, thus robbing the artist of money they invested in the production, marketing, and distribution of their album/single.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

I don't quite understand the analogy. But I don't think it really applies, people will download from the internet because it's not really hurting anything. CDs are things that people have to pay for. The thing is it is just not *that* easy to download things anymore, particularly obscurities - Soulseek is really the only good option. The lucritive digital download market seems to suggest that people are still willing to pay.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

Of course it applies. Lost sales = lost money. Lost money = hurt artist.

Providing a digital file may not require the same cost as the actual pressing of a physical cd, but the creation and marketing of the music does cost the same whether it's a cd or a digital file. At least some of that money needs to be recouped through sales, and the success of a release is primarily measured through number of sales.

And as for how easy it is or isn't to obtain digital files illegally, it seems to be pretty easy. A study released last summer showed that an average teenager's digital music player contains an average of 1770 tracks, and of those, an average of 842 tracks were obtained illegally. That's 48% of an average teenager's music collection.

Now in a more recent study released by the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry (IFPI), they estimate that around 10% of illegal downloads are probably lost sales. Granted, the IFPI is basically the "global version of the RIAA", so their numbers will surely be questioned, but the 10% assumption doesn't sound all that unreasonable to me.

Now here's something that I don't think a lot of people consider. That 10% probably isn't evenly distributed between all labels and individual releases. So if a specific single is immediately leaked onto a P2P website, it'll take a bigger sales hit than one that doesn't get leaked. And if the leaked one is from a small independent artist, it does serious damage to that artist. So overall, it may only be around 4.8% of the average teenager's music files that represent lost sales for the music industry as a whole, but the individual damage it can do to lesser known artists can still be devastating.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

maybe not totally relevant... or maybe.....

:)

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

Aside from being exciting to see (thanks for the link :D) I think it actually is relevant. The Monty Python approach in this case is a great way to use how the internet is evolving as an advertising opportunity rather than trying to go to war with it. I'm all for this kind of creative thinking.

But making your videos available to be viewed on Youtube as an advertising tool to sell DVDs of your movies and TV shows is very different from having people illegally download them to their computer so they can burn it to DVD for free and watch them any time or place they choose.

I seem to be repeating the same points over and over at this point to little avail though, so I guess that's that. Some people just don't seem to want to accept that stealing the work of artists - especially smaller independent artists - hurts those artist's careers and lives. As a smaller independent artist in the music industry myself, I can attest to it.

Re: The beginning of the end for P2Ps/Torrent Sites?
 

Of course the question is, how many sales are lost? Dealing with a smaller-scale artist it seems pretty much impossible to tell. I just wonder how much of it has to do with leaks, which is something I think that IS bad for the industry. Discs that get leaked 6 months ahead of the release date have to have lower-than-expected sales. If the industry could stop them I think it would help a lot.

As for the IFPI numbers...such a study seems really tough to do, as I've read some that claimed the opposite. We DO know CD sales peaked in the age of Napster, when free downloading was also at a peak. The RIAA purposely misreports their numbers to make it look like things are worse than they are:

http://www.musicdish.com/mag/?id=9452

They also point their fingers at downloading as an explanation even when they release something like fewer CDs from one year to the next. The internet model seems like it could kill off the idea of the megastar, from whom the RIAA profits immensely. Honestly I believe their problem with downloading is that it opens peoples ears to different types of music, in particular stuff not promoted or even on their labels. When five releases sell 20 million copies apiece, the RIAA's profits skyrocket - however, spread those 100 million sales across many different albums and they make less.