Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081218/...xdMfpO3auyFz4D

I admire the idea of bringing in people from the right, but Rick Warren? A chief opponent to gay marriage, who compares it to incest and pedophilia?

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

Pray the gay away.

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

okay i know this is just going to bring the hellfire, but i have to say i'm getting sick of this "prop 8" furor. i'm a strong supporter of gay marriage and i understand the anger. but those fighting the measure are now trying to make mortal enemies of anyone and everyone who ever dreamed of supporting the measure. and they're demanding that anyone and everyone they're supportive of join their furor. it's ridiculous.

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

it was actually a bit surprising to begin with. i think a lot of hopes were up and people feltt betrayed completely by the end result that someone, somewhere, has to be thrown under the bus for it.

i still have friends, who usually have a decent perspective on things, get completely passive aggressive about it.

i only think it's funny in the way that people are getting trolled out of their jobs for campaign cash, but i stopped dwelling on this thing about a month and a week ago.

i dont even care about this whole inaugural thing, apart from thinking it's only mildly lame. if obama wants to have as much of the broad american stripe of opinions then that's his ambition. i hope his melting pot outlook gets contagious but it frankly seems too optimistic to not get kneecapped by grumbling and bush-era-honed hysterics about whos screwing who. we're not shifting gears *that* easily.

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

No hellfire here, but just to say I think that's probably an unfair characterization, even though I recognize it's getting (it got) counterproductive in parts. The goal of any campaign group is to get as much support and backing as possible, and I really get the sense that, as flawed as it has been, it doesn't deserve anything like the slating it's been receiving. I also think when people refer to minority groups "demanding" this and "demanding" that, it plays into a certain caritcature, the broader equivalent of "getting uppity".

--

On the Rick Warren choice, let's not downplay this - it's a prominent and unique role that he's been honoured with, and will go some way to hastening his reputation as America's next Pastor. No-one's suggesting his views will be driving the political position on homosexuality in Obama's administration, of course not. But there's a symbolic approval or respect that comes from being honoured in this way. Choices have to be based on more than just "reaching out", even though reaching out is usually "a good thing" (and I'm intrinsically uncomfortable denying anyone rights based on their beliefs, however despicable I personally find them).

For anyone who accepts that being gay is as innate and unchangeable as being straight, then it's fair to start making some comparisons here. If Obama appointed someone who had openly and repeatedly compared your marriage with the sexual abuse of children, I should think there would be a little more uproar going around. If he spouted similarly backwards views about black people and their marriage restrictions, then we wouldn't be heralding Obama's ability to embrace a diverse selection of views - because Obama wouldn't have picked him.

Whether that's right or wrong isn't the point. It's the fact that a line is still drawn at homosexuality that irks me more than the principle of reaching out to someone like this. I'm not greatly opposed to the choice in and of itself (though I share dubman's scepticism about how much it will ultimately achieve), but I am frustrated by the different standards that get applied - and I don't think that's a reflection of Obama's beliefs as much as it is of society's in general.

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

i think he's a cracking dj and his work with way out west isn't to be overlooked - obama's gonna rock the capitol with this selection...

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

i think this mountain is a total molehilll. it's a prayer. delivered by a christian spiritual leader. 90% (probably more) of the christian leaders in this country do not support gay rights. if obama were to try to find a christian leader that was all shiny and happy about gay rights he'd have to go way out on the fringe to find anyone with the stature appropriate for the event. and i personally don't think the inauguration is the venue to be making fringe statements simply to give a nod to a group of people whose demands are not supported by the majority of the population.

and no, "demand" is not the same as "uppity." give me a break.

personally i just hate it when a group of people support a candidate and then wait for that "how's he going to pay us back" action. like if all the chicks banded together and voted for hillary, and then got all outraged if she didn't fill every damn cabinet position with a woman. WHAT ABOUT US??? WE SUPPORTED YOU!!!!!

i'm crabby today. :mad:

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

I was mostly scratching my head when I heard it. I understand not getting into a furor over Prop 8, but Obama certainly could've picked someone who was less in the spot light. But I've also heard this has angered conservatives as well, so yay?

But to give Warren his due, here's some bits from his Wikipedia file.

But also...

So I like his efforts to combat poverty, disease, and global warming, but I could do without his crazy stuff. What I sense is Obama wants to build support amongst evangelicals for his social programs. Politically, this is a very good move for him, and I hope it translates into real results.

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

Oh really? I'd never have guessed.

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

Yeah, there are certainly worse than Warren around. I'm not totally against this decision, it's just that I think it's interesting to be aware once again where the line (doesn't) get drawn.

(and I refuse to accept that I'm "creating a mountain" by simply saying that)

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

Setting the specific issue of gay marriage aside for a moment, I believe that it's simply another example of Obama finding ways to achieve real progress. Time and time again, he's shown that his governing style is to engage people he's in ideological opposition to by finding a foundation of trust and respect to build the possibility of change on. For example, Lieberman embraced and perpetuated the idea that Obama "pals around with terrorists" during the campaign. Democrats wanted retribution, but Obama voiced his support for Lieberman to retain his chair on the Homeland Security Committee. You can bet he'll be able to work more effectively with Lieberman now than had he continued the chain of tit-for-tat squabbling.

Regarding the social acceptance of equating gay marriage with paedophilia and the like, yeah, that's completely wrong. But if welcoming Warren into the fold means Obama may be able to work more effectively with him in ultimately changing some of those views for the better, then it's worth it to me.

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

i don't really see the furor over Rick Warren. what exactly is he going to do on Inauguration Day? it's not like he's going to preach about rights/laws/my religion is better than your religion etc. it's just one day and a prayer people!

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

Furor. Fewor. furoooooor. ffffffuuuurrrrror. Furrreeer.

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

Having been reading and listening to more of Warren's views, I have to say I'm growing less and less bothered by Obama's decision than I was before. Clearly I think Warren's reasoning is fundamentally wrong, and I still feel frustrated knowing that he wouldn't have been invited if he was appearing to compare African-American marriages to paedophilia - but as I said, there's worse out there than him. On that point, I just watched the clip in which he apparently 'equated gay marriage with paedophilia and incest'....

When asked whether he views these things as "equivalent" to gay marriage, he answers: yes.

So is he suggesting gay marriage is as bad as paedophilia, and by extension, gay married couples are no better than paedophiles? It might seem that way from invoking that equivalence - and yet, I'm not so sure that's really what he necessarily meant to suggest. I don't think we can be so quick to assume that he views gays and paedophiles as equally sinful, which is what much of the media coverage of this has implied. He may have just meant that when it comes to the definition of marriage, anything other than a grown man and woman is equally unqualified.

I guess the fact that Warren is clearly a charismatic speaker, has been receiving a lot of exposure, and was already known for his remarks on the Terri Schiavo furor, fewor, furoooooor.... controversy.... has made it easy to cast him as the great bête noire. Which frankly just furnishes him with too much credit.

(We all know Jody Wisternoff should take some of it too ;) )

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

They didnt even blink. I thought it was funny though.

Typo In Proposition 8 Defines Marriage As Between 'One Man And One Wolfman'

December 17, 2008

SACRAMENTO, CA—Activists on both sides of the gay marriage debate were shocked this November, when a typographical error in California's Proposition 8 changed the state constitution to restrict marriage to a union between "one man and one wolfman," instantly nullifying every marriage except those comprised of an adult male and his lycanthrope partner. "The people of California made their voices heard today, and reaffirmed our age-old belief that the only union sanctioned in God's eyes is the union between a man and another man possessed by an ungodly lupine curse," state Sen. Tim McClintock said at a hastily organized rally celebrating passage of the new law. But opponents, including Bakersfield resident Patricia Millard—who is now legally banned from marrying her boyfriend, a human, non-wolfman male—claim it infringes on their civil liberties. "I love James just as much as a wolfman loves his husband," Millard said. "We deserve the same rights as any horrifying mythical abomination." On the heels of the historic typo, voters in Utah passed a similar referendum a week later, defining marriage as between one man and 23 wolfmen.

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

I'm not going to start a new thread for this, but it made me laugh.

Pope likens "saving" gays to saving the rainforest

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Pope Benedict said on Monday that saving humanity from homosexual or transsexual behavior was just as important as saving the rainforest from destruction. "(The Church) should also protect man from the destruction of himself. A sort of ecology of man is needed," the pontiff said in a holiday address to the Curia, the Vatican's central administration. "The tropical forests do deserve our protection. But man, as a creature, does not deserve any less."

http://i42.tinypic.com/k1c7mf.jpg

"Transsexual behaviour" you say?

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

He actually has a point, you know. Chemical pollutants in the eco system are causing decreases in male hormones, sperm count, quantitatively measured masculine attributes, in not only our species but evident in several mammals.

So really, if we don't do something about the environment the world will be filled with nothing but lesbians.

Hmmmm.. Sorry just taking a moment to reflect on that sentence.

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

No longer fashionable to say it in this post-PC-backlash era, but I wonder if a small decrease in male hormones wouldn't be a bad thing for the future of the planet. ;)

Seriously though, I accept the environmental impact on sperm count and even the social impact on masculinity (I know they're more intertwined that), but I wish that was his point! The concern that gender theory (gay marriage can't have been far from his mind) will lead to "self-destruction for humans" honestly strikes me as just a bit premature and silly, and a proxy for what's really bothering him. After all, it's hard not to think we'll be done for by the climate, by war, by starvation long before any destruction arising from gender theory. If anything, the results of ever greater promiscuity may even pip the post to destruction before gender benderdom. In the meantime, a slowdown (or decrease) in population should, if anything, help save - not detroy - the world (let's be generous here and not get into the issue of contraception or question the Catholic Church's motives!)

But hey, I suppose when it comes to the topic of neglecting our reproductive duties, we should cede to the greater knowledge of the celibate man in the frock every time. :cool:

You spend as long as you need contemplating a world full of nothing but Rosie O'Donnells. :p

(...with apologies to Rosie)

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

Back to Warren, and Melissa Etheridge has written a piece that to me at least sounds very encouraging.

On the day of the conference I received a call from Pastor Rick, and before I could say anything, he told me what a fan he was. He had most of my albums from the very first one. What? This didn't sound like a gay hater, much less a preacher. He explained in very thoughtful words that as a Christian he believed in equal rights for everyone. He believed every loving relationship should have equal protection. He struggled with proposition 8 because he didn't want to see marriage redefined as anything other than between a man and a woman. He said he regretted his choice of words in his video message to his congregation about proposition 8 when he mentioned pedophiles and those who commit incest. He said that in no way, is that how he thought about gays. He invited me to his church, I invited him to my home to meet my wife and kids. He told me of his wife's struggle with breast cancer just a year before mine.

When we met later that night, he entered the room with open arms and an open heart. We agreed to build bridges to the future.

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

Frankly, we could do with some "damage" to human reproduction. The rate of human expansion on the planet is rocketing us towards unsustainable numbers. Maybe even before the climate gets us...

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

But wait....how can we enjoy knee-jerk condemnations of people if they keep showing openness to change and alternative viewpoints?!?!?

Merry Christmas everyone!

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

Rick Warren speaks out against the Ugandan anti-gay laws...

http://www.rickwarren.com/

Wow. Thank you Rick.

And Rowan - I'm sorry but your silence on this one stinks.

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

Who's Rowan?

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

Sorry... Rowan William, the present Archbishop of Canterbury, symbolic head of the Anglican communion, controversial liberal, and proud owner of the world's most amazing eyebrows...

http://i48.tinypic.com/2h72u6d.jpg

He's someone I normally have a lot of respect (and sympathy) for. Perhaps his biggest failing (along with offering pronouncements that are insufficiently dumbed down for the abysmal level of 'public debate', and pruned of any phrases likely to be taken out of context and thrown back at him) is his moral relativism, usually manifesting itself as silence. (And it's not often you can say that about a religious leader!)

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

Well Decks, you'd be surprised how powerful silence can be. Sometimes it's just best to let others do what they do and reveal all by themselves what they're about.

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

Sometimes that's true.

But with the Anglican church in Uganda supporting the prospect of seven year prison sentences for discussing homosexuality, life imprisonment for homosexual acts - and death for a second offence - this is probably not the best time for the leader of the worldwide Anglican communion to remain tight-lipped.

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

Update: I take it back...

The piece only appeared in the Telegraph yesterday but apparently he gave the interview before Rick Warren spoke out.

I beg his holiness's forgiveness...
(what's that you were saying about silence, jOHN? :o )

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

Well this is nice.

The BBC, in its infinite wisdom has opened the question out to its audience on Have Your Say:

Should homosexuals face execution?

(Main title/question changed from "Should homosexuals face execution?" to "Should Uganda debate gay execution?" only after the board was closed)

Oh I don't know now, umm, well let me see...


Let's ask this commenter:

"Totally agree. Ought to be imposed in the UK too, asap. Bring back some respectable family values. Why do we have to suffer 'gay pride' festivals? Would I be allowed to organise a 'straight pride' festival? No, thought as much!! If homosexuality is natural, as we are forced to believe, how can they sustain the species? I suggest all gays are put on a remote island somewhere and left for a generation - after which, theoretically there should be none left!"
- Chris, Guildford, posted at 8.59am
(51 recommendations)

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

Merry Christmas!

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

Yeah, season of goodwill, innit!

This comment is a classic:

I bet he's some Sun-reading benefit scrounger too, the f**ing scumbag.

I need to get drunk.

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

We already do pay more taxes when you pull the ratio to benefits bit.

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

One has to assume that the BBC is just doing this as a social experiment, conducted with a sort of detached cynicism at the outcome that is expected from ringing the chow bell so close to the woodwork.

I just can't believe this was generated out of a mindless objectivite news script, or some sincere quest for gaining insights.

And as an experiment, its confirmed what a lot of people already knew. That a lot of people in the UK are walking around with currogated iron bars shoved right up their ass, their appeal to a more tolerant, relaxed society (compared to the alan turing days) beginning and ending by splashing whoever is the tart of the week on the mags at sainsbury's local.

that's not to say america is any better. we're all the product of the wackos so militant you guys had the intelligence to kick out starting 400 years ago

The rant aside, I'm starting to wonder if there isn't an evolutionary explanation for the hostility towards the gay community and that this evolutionary factor is more strong than the religious factor. I'm not talking about homosexuality being abhorrent to evolution. Several new cases show things like the sisters of gay men being more fecund, which quickly sweep away arguments that evolution would never naturally carry down non reproductive behavior.

But is it a total paradox to suggest that evolution would simultaneously carry down hostile behaviors towards non reproductive behaviors?

If not, then maybe things will only become more egalitarian once people come to grips with their alleged gag reflex towards alternative sexual practices as an evolutionary trick, like they had to get over the evolutionary "us versus them" trick that mires racial issues.

And if that's true, than people who carry on about the gay agenda or beat a gay man to death and string them up on barbed wire could be classified as those among us who are knuckle dragging shallow breathers whose mind set is still locked in the homonid shit slingers from which we evolved.

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

Y'know I check the Have Your Say boards on a pretty regular basis and I've never seen anything to point to HYS being used as a social experiment for a particular issue. That just doesn't seem to be its remit. Neither is it the norm (ie. I have never seen) a HYS debate headed with/based around a rhetorical question, or a question that wasn't meant to be judged seriously.

My problem with it - and I don't think I'm being oversensitive here - is that the asking of a yes/no question as the subject of a debate implicitly legitimises both possible answers. I mean, can you imagine any of the following:

"Should negroes face execution - did the KKK go too far? Tell us what you think..."
"Should Jews be gassed? Did Hitler go too far? We'd love to hear from you..."
"Should women be executed? Does the Taleban go too far? What do YOU think?"

All in the spirit of "just having an open debate" and "getting people's views out in the open rather than burying them"? It seems the normal codes of acceptability always break down when it comes to homosexuals.

I think there may well be something in what you say about evolutionary explanations for the visceral reaction against homosexuality, and it seems that certain mindsets (most often correlating with the political right) have a harder time overriding their baser fears than other people. Ditto racism, or, for that matter, anyone markedly different to ourselves.

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

So you actually think that the prejudice is so bad that some group at the BBC actually was deliberately justifying both a yes and no answer by way of entertaining both a yes and no answer. Man. That's fucked.

(I mean that's fucked the bbc would do that, not that its fucked you would believe that)

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

If it is true, then take heart, Decks. We love you.

And things are changing gender wise in our species. And I mean changes in human years. If you look at the kind of men considered socially desirable through the past 100 years they've gone from rugged to girly really quickly. I'm talking Humphrey Bogart versus that ass clown in the Twilight movies (what's his name?).

I'm not sure this is a change in fashion. I'm hoping that we're seeing a biological switch in the gender magnetic poles to a point where things will get so confusing that people will have no choice but to just drop the pretense and say ah fuck it, do what you want. Lady Gaga has a penis for fuck's sake.

Anyway, the whole theory about the bbc doing a social experiment, it kind of comes a bit from that small "experience" I had with them. The reporter just kept looking at me in a way I found uncomfortable. Its just one situation and one guy, it just left me with a taste in my mouth like "you guys like fucking with people, don't you?"

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

Let's not even touch the American media.

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

Well, I doubt the BBC's decision was rooted in prejudice, at least not in the same vein as some of the below-the-fold comments that appeared. I think it's just that final point where they had to decide whether the question was acceptable or not, that they couldn't help but tap (perhaps subconsciously) into the broader public mood in which condemnation of homosexuals is somehow more acceptable than that of other minority groups. I'm quite sure the question of discussing the execution of other such groups would never even be entertained, not even "in the interest of sparking debate". Essentially it was just a bad judgment call.

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

Yes it's a curious transformation, the whole rugged man to prettyboy thing. Is it a return to the natural inclinations we see in the animal kingdom where competing males often have to be more attractive than the female? Is it corporations who spotted an emerging market and a quick buck to be made out of encouraging vanity in men? Is it simply the inevitable consequence of focusing more and more on youth - hairless, sculpted, etc?

No... it's the gay mafia and their lecherous conspiracy to effeminize and homosexualize men! :D

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

Damn, that was good Deckard.

Re: Obama picks Rick Warren for inaugural invocation
 

apparently it was a poorly-titled debate that sprang from news that the subject is being debated seriously in uganda, rather than an insidious attempt to screw with people's minds...